Ray? Gay? Say it isn’t so!
It is so and it is sad. Ray Boltz the long time Christian music artist has officially come out of the closet.
For those of you who can’t place him he is the singer of such classics as “Thank you”, “Watch the Lamb”, “I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb” and many, many more. In the early years of Dare 2 Share there was always room for a Boltz song. The guy can sure tell a story and communicate a spiritual truth through song. When it comes to ballads (in the world of Christian music anyway) he is the best.
After more than thirty years of marriage he finally “admitted” to himself and his family that he was gay. He stopped fighting the feelings that where raging inside him for years and succumbed to the dark urges within. Of course I feel bad for his wife and kids. I can’t imagine the reverberations of such a declaration on a family. I am praying for them as they continue to struggle with all the implications of this tragic revelation.
You can probably tell where I stand on the subject of homosexuality. I believe that the act of homosexual sex is a sin. Why? Because the Bible is pretty clear on it. Check out Romans 1:26-27, “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”
There are those who say that the sin in this passage is not homosexuality but the lust combined with the non-monagomous sexfest implied in these verses. But Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, describes homosexual sex in these verses as “unnatural.” In other words men with men and women with women is not the way that God intended sex to be, um, done. Homosexuality is a Satanic perversion of God’s gift of sex.
That’s right, sex is a divine inspired gift designed for a man and a woman to thoroughly enjoy in the context of marriage. Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is immoral. Sex between two members of the same gender in any context is immoral. As the saying goes, “He made them Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.”
Paul goes on in Romans chapter one to describe the act of homosexual sex with these words, “Men committed indecent acts with other men….” In other words homosexual sex is unnatural and indecent from God’s perspective. To deny this is to twist the Scriptures out of context to be politically correct or to justify a sinful behavior.
In 1 Corinthians 6:9 Paul adds homosexuality to the list of descriptions that describe the wicked, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
This list of sins describes who the Corinthian believers were before they trusted in Jesus. Paul is making the point that this is not who they really are in Christ now so why would they continue to engage in those behaviors?
So in light of all this how are we to treat homosexuals? I believe that we are to treat the homosexuality community with the love of Jesus Christ outside of the church. We are to speak the truth in love and offer them the hope they need through Jesus Christ, the same way we would offer the gospel to anyone else! Too many times Christians treat the gay community as lepers, like their category of sin is unforgiveable. But we must love them and share Jesus with them like we would any sinner. Remember that although you may not struggle with homosexual sin you are just as much of a sinner as anyone is and so am I. We received forgiveness through faith and so can they, so can anyone. When any sinner puts their faith in Jesus, God forgives them for their sins and gives them the power and desire to turn away from those sins in the power of the Holy Spirit.
What about the homosexuals inside the church who claim to be believers in Jesus? We love them too, not by accepting their sin but by doing our best to help them live in victory over it. As long as they are willing to seek to walk in sexual purity we must be by their side every step of the way in prayerful encouragement. I have been a part of this powerful restoration process as a pastor and watched God work miracles as a result!
What if our brothers or sisters in Christ, like Ray Boltz, give in to the desire and give up trying to fight the urges within them? Here is the Apostle Paul’s instruction when dealing with anyone who claims to be a believer but who is willfully living in sin,
“I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. ‘Expel the wicked man from among you.’” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13
This is a tough pill to swallow but according to this passage there is a time we collectively give the cold shoulder out of a warm heart to anyone who are unrepentant about their sins. The goal of this cold shoulder is to convict and convince the offending brother or sister that he or she needs to repent. The goal of all church discipline in the New Testament is to create true repentance in the hearts of those who are sinning and reunite them in fellowship with their spiritual family.
Let us all pray for Ray Boltz and his family during this difficult time. Let us give him a cold shoulder out of a warm heart until he repents. Then, once he does, let us welcome him back with open arms and help him live a life that pleases God. And let us watch ourselves during this process because we too are every bit as susceptible to sin. As Galatians 6:1 reminds us, “Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.”
45 Comments
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September 18, 2008 3:10:39 pm
I appreciate this post as I have been confronted with this issue among some teens in our community that feel homosexuality is okay and not a sin. It’s a real challenge as I take the same stand as you do and try to convey the “right” message to students. Our teens today are hearing the wrong message from the media but when Christian’s are sending that wrong message it makes our job as youth workers more difficult. I’ve had students say to me; “If it’s okay for (fill the blank of some Christian artist) then it must be okay.” Thanks for the boldness to share on this issue.
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September 18, 2008 3:22:13 pm
Literally I am stunned………
My parents being missionaries, just about wore out the song “Thank You” it still makes my Dad tear up!
The Lord loves Him so much, and while I don’t agree with him, I am not going to cast stones!
I will pray for him for sure!
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September 18, 2008 8:52:15 pm
I’m concerned that any young person reading this who is struggling with same-sex attraction will be totally discouraged by the the way you have so strongly put blanket statements about homosexuality. The thing is that yes, we are all sinners, but some sins are much more difficult to ‘have victory over’ as you put it. Please realise that if someone (after your article) is brave enough to come and talk to you about their stuggles (if they dare to share), that it is an extremely long and involved process. There are many things that can contribute to a person having same-sex attraction, often things that are not their fault – such as abuse, labelling, etc. Don’t think that just because someone is not ‘cured’ overnight, that the Holy Spirit is not working in their lives. I feel for Ray, because if he had ever told anyone about his struggle when he was younger, he may have been outcast, told to get married – because apparently some people think that fixes everything, or just told to pray about it. God gives people such as psychologists, pastors, support groups, and friends gifts to help people in this situation. Unfortunately, we like to spout our theologically fine tuned answers, and forget that we are dealing with real people who have real stuggles.
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September 18, 2008 9:44:56 pm
Paul understood he was dealing with real people with real struggles when he wrote those letters to the Corinthian church. Inspired by the Spirit, which means, the Spirit understood too, of course, He is God! Greg understands this as well – obvious by the love for students and work of D2S.
Here’s another blanket statement I’d like to add to this whole situation:
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come UNLESS THE FALLING AWAY COMES FIRST, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” 2 Thess. 2:3-4.
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September 19, 2008 12:55:00 am
LAME!
man I like his music, Watch the lamb is one of my fav. songs, it was quite influential in my faith as a child, and helped me visualize the day Christ died for me. uggg. lame. I agree with you Greg, and I agree its a sin. and we should still love people in sin, no matter what the sin is, man thats frustrating… I have a relative that is gay, so this hits close to home, I still love her (my relative), but it rips me apart to know she is living in this sin.
thanks for the post Greg. I will be praying for his family, and him. -
September 19, 2008 5:56:09 am
Hey Felicity, I agree it is a process. So for any young person who is struggling with this issue they need to realize that as long as they are engaged in the process of sanctification and transformation day by day the Holy Spirit will be there to help them. I totally agree that we aren’t “cured” overnight no matter what our sin. But God will be with us every step of the way as we seek to live a life that pleases him no matter what sin we are struggling with…as long as we are struggling with it and through it there is hope through the power of the Holy Spirit. As for the spouting of “fine tuned theological answers” I was just quoting Scripture. It was the Apostle Paul actually doing the “spouting.” We need to make sure that as we help people through these very real problems that we are taking Scripture seriously. But I do appreciate your balancing reminder that overcoming this sin (or any sin for that matter) can take time. Thanks!
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September 19, 2008 10:05:15 am
Greg, I appreciate your post and agree with it pretty much, but a verse you posted struck me in a way it never has before- “sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.” How many of us support politicians, corporate businessmen, and community leaders that fall into these categories. I realize that some of these are harder to make a judgement call on than others but I have heard time after time, people support the gas companies (I hope we are waking up to these crooks finally), political candidates on both sides of the isle that have swindled money yet claim to be of like-faith or have supported legislature that let’s our wallets get fatter and fatter (not against money, but when it drives us to gain more and more we are idolizing it and are greedy). I am a former straight ticket guy (I bet you can guess which party as most of the church has been duped by it), but I am tired of supporting evil intentioned people who use my faith as a ploy to get into office and support their special interest buddies. Both or our political candidates for president are guilty of this. I realize this is not necessarily a political forum and the issue is homosexuality in the church (which is a sinful lifestyle, but so are greediness, idolatry, and gossip all sins as well that we give a pass to usually). I will pray for the Boltz family and all that have been hurt by Ray’s sin of “self” that he has given in to.
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September 19, 2008 10:13:30 am
Yeah Zane, that passage doesn’t actually mention homosexuality but it does mention greed and even slander! What would happen if we took this passage seriously in our own churches. We would not have a church growth program but a church shrinkage program! I think that’s exactly what needs to happen. We need to hold each other accountable on every level and be held accountable ourselves! As Paul said, “judgment begins with the house of God.”
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September 19, 2008 10:29:42 am
Zane I agree with you! I have to constantly remind myself, because I am SO opinionated, that whenever I get in a dither about politics, that the reason why I do is because I am supposed to be focusing on “things above” the reason why we as christians have such a hard time with any of it, is because it doesn’t mesh with what Jesus taught about KINGDOM!
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September 19, 2008 10:52:09 am
This news is heartbreaking to hear. I cannot imagine what his wife and children must be going through. I will pray for all of them.
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September 19, 2008 10:53:57 am
Greg, Here is a curious question. Do you think the church (the body of Christ) is ready for “judgment begins with the house of God?” I believe we are long over due for real repentance and revival in the hearts of the church, but I sometime questions whether we’re ready for it. I don’t like to doubt, but sometimes I do especially when I see and hear all the negative news (as Zane mentioned). I wonder if the church (the business side) is afraid of taking the passage you mentioned seriously because they know it will cause shrinkage and they don’t want to lose the numbers (pleasing people first). But imagine the side affects of shrinkage (pruning)…tremendous GROWTH?! In a previous post you talked about prayer. My heart has/is being convicted to become a hardcore prayer warrior. Thanks bro!
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September 19, 2008 11:25:45 am
I agree it’s difficult to come out, but God forgives all sin. I say good for him for finally comming out. I realize it is difficult for all involved including his public. But, understand how difficult this has been for him. I say pray for him and his loved ones!
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September 19, 2008 1:48:57 pm
Unfortunately, we live in a very self absorbed culture where we all think that life is all about us, our wants, needs, and desires – and we will do whatever it takes to achieve that. 2 Timothy 3:1 states “But know this: difficult times will come in the last days. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the form of religion but denying its power. Avoid these people!” I think this just about covers all of us at some time or another. I wish we could all get to a point where we could stop focusing so much on our needs, and our wants, and our desires, and focus on striving to be like Jesus and live our lives for Him. In some way or another, I think we all have some sin that we tend to hold on to. We must pray hard for each other – and hold each other accountable!
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September 19, 2008 2:00:40 pm
Greg,
I fully support everything you have mentioned. Sin should be addressed within the church & people should be held accountable. This is what God’s word says and I feel that Churches today are not being as obedient to this as they should be and it is hurting our witness. If we say we are a Christian then we should ACT like a Christian..
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September 19, 2008 10:36:29 pm
[...] watchJohn Woodhouse on OT NarrativeRay? Gay? Say it isn’t so!Church Planting Entrepreneurssome practical reponsses to Driscoll’s MTC challengeChurch Planting [...]
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September 19, 2008 10:49:44 pm
Wow!
I haven’t been this shocked since Ted Haggard! Man, I LOVE ‘Pledge Allegiance to The Lamb’! But then, should we be shocked?
I know as I study God’s Armor what Satan’s flaming arrows have been and are in my life-pornography, which God’s Spirit Has Defeated as I stand firm and declare the Authority Christ Gives me over those demons, and lust, which I find still attacks me when I am not alert. Yet I know that “He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” (2Cor 12:9-10). I DO boast of and delight in my weaknesses,for Christ Has Delivered me from them, Released me from my chains that He May Use me to Rescue His children from the same prison that enslaved me. And I DO experience His Tough Love as our God Continues to Discipline and Disciple me as His son. He Has Given me a glimpse of what I would be without His Presence in my life, and it scares the crap out of me!
I guess I could give in and say that God Made me an adulterous sex maniac, OR I can choose to listen to the Whisper in my ear that I am Made for Something, Someone Better. Made with a Fierce and Furious Love that Transcends and Gains Victory over the demons and flesh of the world and even Satan himslef through the Blood of my-our-Savior. “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” (2 Cor 10:3-5)
Praying for Ray in this huge Battle he is fighting. Our God Is Still Calling Ray Boltz to be what John Eldredge would call a ‘Maximus’- a Noble Prince, a Fierce Warrior, a Sacred Lover, and, most of all….a Son. A son willing to die on the battlefield for the hearts of his woman, his children, and his God, his King. And we will know him as a son as Thomas in John 20 knew Jesus WAS Jesus, IS Jesus…not DESPITE his wounds, but BECAUSE of them… -
September 20, 2008 8:40:50 am
Although not familiar with this artist I am familiar with his struggle. If we are truthful, (and if not with God…then with who) WE struggle. Think about it, who are our most brillant artists, the man/woman tortured in spirit…Van Gogh, Jerzy Kozinski, Marvin Gaye, the list is endless. WE struggle. But Jesus said in Mark 8:34 “And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” We speak of deliverance services, I’m not sure all will be delivered all the time until Jesus returns. It IS a cross, and we each struggle with our cross’. Jesus struggled carring his physical cross up to Calvary, but the Holy spirit who is faithful compelled another to come along side, Simon the Cyrene to help. What would happen if we just let THE WORD do HIS thing and heal us of our unbelief? Mr Boltz I desire your repentance and restoration. Let His love for you overwhelm this our struggle.
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September 20, 2008 2:05:03 pm
I have to second Felicity here…
Quite honestly, I think we Christians try to make this a lot too cut and dry, and I know that it has hindered me in my own struggles even with heterosexual lusts. It’s not as simple as telling your body not to do something, and I seriously think that it is wrong to shun someone who is honestly struggling with something. It’s not like choosing to come out has made his life easier or better for him. This guy has probably just lost almost all of his support from friends and family, and if we choose to alienate him in the depths of his despair, I think we would be doing exactly what Jesus would NEVER do.
Ok, although your theological background is much stronger than mine, I’m going to have to say that you took that verse out of context. The man in Corinth hadn’t been fighting his desires for years and years. He simply chose to sin because that is what he wanted to do. Boltz, on the other hand, has been fighting this desires for years, with probably no way of talking about it with family and friends, and he just now lost the battle that no one knew he was fighting. Shouldn’t we go to his aide instead of shunning him? For example, if I had a friend, who was a Christian, but I learned that he was addicted to drugs, and was currently using them because he couldnt fight his desires, am I not supposed to help him? Or find someone who can? I’m going to be blunt, but it would be STUPID to shun someone who was actively struggling with their desires. If my friends had done that to me, i would have never been saved. God does not forsake me when I sin, therefore, i will never forsake the Christians around me who sin.
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September 20, 2008 2:07:33 pm
yea…my thoughts weren’t exactly coherent…oh well
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September 20, 2008 5:46:12 pm
This issue is really not that difficult. Hebrews 13:4 says, “Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.” Let the marriage bed be undefiled! Sex is a glorious gift given to us by God. But it has a very exclusive place to be practiced – in the “marriage bed.” This is so clear. So simple. Sex is for marriage. Marriage is only between one man and one woman. Anything – anything outside of this is sin. Adultery, homosexuality, fornication, etc. is all out.
I’m not sure why Christians get so worked up when the truth is told.
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September 20, 2008 8:13:32 pm
Scott,
I get worked-up because it’s as if us Christians tend treat other people as robots. We tell them what to do, and if they can’t/don’t then we assume that they are corrupt beyond repair, and expect them to fix themselves, by themselves. We say, “You can be a Christian and be in our community – after you get your act together.” As I said, with my experience with my own heterosexual lusts, i think it is incredibly ineffective to simply tell a homosexual to ignore their desires. It is not that easy. It would be the same thing as if someone told you to stop being attracted to women. could you do that? If your married or have a girlfriend, what would you think if someone told you to stop loving her and to never love a woman again because you should love men instead? What if you were shunned and hated by well over 50% of the world because you loved women?
I affirm the Biblical truth that homosexuality is wrong. I affirm that Paul speaks the Truth. HOWEVER, I think we need to take more time, actually form a relationship with these people, and learn to truly understand there point of view so that we may truly aide them in a way that will build their relationship with Christ rather than potentially destroy it. This is the way that God has treated me, and the way that I will forever attempt to treat my fellow man. We can NOT simply write off other people’s legitimate struggles as “not really that difficult.” That is what the Law did, and people died because of it. Jesus took on our sins not only in His death, but also in His taking on of our humanity. He, the God of everything, THE ultimate God of everything, took the time to fully embrace humanity while maintaining his complete Holiness in order to not only save us from our sins, but to also develop a truly understanding and involved relationship with us. In doing so, He became our friend and has helped us limp along to our Father even in our continued state of sin. That is how we should treat others.
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September 20, 2008 10:00:39 pm
Sam,
A number of points.
First, I never said we should disregard the struggle. I struggle with sin. You struggle. We all struggle regardless of what sin it is we struggle with.
Secondly, I did not say the struggle with homosexuality was not difficult. I said that considering this to be a sin should not be that difficult. Of course the struggle is difficult. All sin is.
Thirdly, I did not say homosexuals should be shunned. We don’t shun sinners. We love them. But in 1 Corithians 5 Paul had some serious words about people who persist in unrepentant sin if they are in the church. A Christian can struggle his whole life with sin. I do. But is he repentant? Does he hate his sin? Or does he say as Ray Boltz has, I’m gay because God made me this way so deal with it. That won’t work.
Fourth, I personally think we ought not single this sin out among sins. All sin is offensive to a holy God. Mine included.
Fifth, the church should repent for her cruel and unloving behavior toward homosexuals. But we must also repent if we do not call it what it is – sin. It is also unloving to let someone pursue a lifestyle that leads to destruction regardless of what that lifestyle is.
Sam, my post was in reaction to the likes of Brian McLaren who said that we should have a five year moratorium on homosexuality. Say what? Is he serious? Homosexuality is a sin and we should treat those who struggle with this sin like any other sinners – we love them with the gospel!
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September 20, 2008 10:20:59 pm
Scott and Sam
Great conversation! Scott, I agree that sexual purity IS so clear, so simple. Yet so many godly men and women have fallen to sexual sin and the scandal Satan creates within the church it is unbelievable. I believe the political church has grown so self-righteous that if any disciple expresses a temptation they are practically (or literally) excommunicated and certainly are encouraged to “keep it quiet”. As Believers we are expected to be perfect (one of Satan’s lies). And I KNOW from experience that one of Satan’s BIGGEST lies is,”You can’t tell anyone about these feelings and acts! They will see you for the poser you are! If you keep it secret, no one will know! Your secret sins aren’t hurting anyone. They are not really even sins, just a way to help you relieve the desires that your singleness, or your wife, or your church, or your bible study, or your God, can’t begin to meet. EVERYBODY does it…”
It is not until we find brothers and sisters in Christ that come along side us-not as accountability partners, but as FELLOW Warriors who will stand in the gap for us with prayer and encouragement- that we will find total Victory in Christ. THIS IS A STINKIN’ WAR!!
And Scott, your ‘limp along’ phrase made me think of Nichole Nordeman’s ‘Live’ song…Did you come that we might just survive?
Did you come so we could just get by?
Did you walk among us
So we might merely limp along beside?Great song…check it out.
Jesus Says it all in John 10:10, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”
Greg, you are so inspiring, my brother. For through you and so many other brothers and sisters God Has Shown me that not only must we put our faith in Christ Alone for our Salvation, we must strive to disciple and be discipled in the Deep Waters that Are Jesus Christ.
OK, I’ll shut up…or maybe I won’t…
Only by the Blood of Jesus…. -
September 21, 2008 6:26:04 am
Scott,
Ah, ok. By the way, the latter part of what I said about shunning and how we should treat sinners really was not directed at you, I meant it as a second response to what Greg said. Sorry that I wasn’t clear on that. Last night I think that I got a little over zealous in responding. Sorry if I stepped on anyone’s toes.
Sam
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September 21, 2008 6:41:27 am
Will,
Another by the way,
I really like those lyrics, and I’m really glad that you posted. Your thoughts definitely did add to the conversation, so don’t feel like you have to shut-up.
Sam
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September 21, 2008 4:06:33 pm
Thanks, Sam. My toes are just fine.
Yep, McLaren really said that.
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September 21, 2008 8:34:53 pm
Hehe, ironically, my toes are (physically) hurt after a bike accident. Nothing bad, just funny.
Wow…I mean…even if your don’t view homosexuality as a sin that doesn’t make any sense. I’d like to see his reasoning for that.
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September 22, 2008 3:54:21 pm
Sam
Thanks for the permission to keep yappin, buddy. Prayin’ for everyone on this post right now. May we NEVER give up! -
September 25, 2008 8:33:55 am
Okay, I don’t get this…is there more to the story than you’re telling? You say Ray has “succumbed to the dark forces….” is he living in a homosexual relationship? Or simply decided that he can no longer lie to himself and his family? Otherwise, admitting that you’re gay is no different than admitting that you have a strong tendency to be an alcoholic or that you struggle with lying. Whether or not you believe people are born gay (and I do, I’ve seen it in kids when they were 18 months old), having the inclination does not make you a sinner.
When you use words like “…homosexuals inside the church who CLAIM to be believers…” (uppercase emphasis mine) you automatically put homosexual Christians on the defensive.
It’s so easy to point the finger until you have loved a homosexual CHristian who is struggling. And I have never, never once heard of one homosexual who was talked out of homosexuality. But I now several who were loved out of it.
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September 25, 2008 3:20:05 pm
hey all! i have enjoyed reading the discussion.
i will try to help the discussion, but i hope not to misstate what i think greg is trying to say. btw, what i am addressing is specifically for trying to help clarify on a specific issue. i am not saying i am perfect, i am not saying that other issues in the church don’t also need addressed, i am not saying that people struggling with same-sex attraction are worse people since we all struggle with sin.
valerie- i think greg may have meant that ‘ray seems to have given in or yielded to sin and has stopped struggling against sinful desires’ when greg said that.
i think greg put it well though. i think that this is an accurate statement for a couple reasons.
ray is not saying he is ‘struggling with same sex relationships’ he is instead embracing his same-sex attration- if you don’t believe me then i would refer to his own web page. http://www.rayboltz.com/. here ray discusses how he has found a church that feels the same way he does. the link to the church is provided on the page. http://mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home. the church he has found has embraced homosexuality, saying that it is not wrong. quoting one of their pamphlets-
“A growing number of biblical and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and lesbians should be accepted – just as they are-in Christian churches, and homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!”
~ Rev. Elder Don Eastman, Homosexuality: Not a Sin, Not a Sickness, Pt. 1i think it is accurate to say that it can be described as a succumbing to darkness because he has embraced a false identity from satan (that he is gay- instead of having struggles in a same-sex attraction area), divorced his wife, and has started living a gay lifestyle. here is an article mentioning that(http://www.washingtonblade.com/2008/9-12/arts/feature/13258.cfm?page=3)
it is not that ray is just ‘being honest’ about his feelings. it is that he is acting on them.
greg is not saying that it is wrong to have same-sex feelings- greg even specifically said that it was the fact that ray stopped fighting those feelings.
i do not find anything wrong with greg saying “what about homosexuals who claim to be believers?” as opposed to homosexuals who don’t claim it. if someone says they are homosexual and says they believe in jesus there is a different response to them than someone who does not claim it. both responses are in love, of course.
and, yes it is easy to point the finger. to point it at greg or you or someone with a same-sex attraction. and yes, real change for them needs to include love(though love can look tough)…but anyone who has been loved out of embracing same-sex attractions was also talked to. both are present. and God’s word is vital.
-i hope that helps the discussion! like i said, i am only commenting on a very specific topic.
ian the presbyterian =P
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October 01, 2008 9:07:27 am
I really appreciated what Felicity and Valerie had to say about this topic. It seems like you two have a good understanding of this topic and are not just throwing a “pat Christian answer” at it. I normally NEVER post on forums like this. I will read through and then just go on with my day, but some of what was said made me really frustrated. I always thought homosexuality was such a black and white issue until I started working at a drop in centre for street involved youth. Some of these youth had gone through some pretty horrific experiences in their life. Abuse, both sexual and physical. For some of the girls, who are now involved in relationships with other girls they could never imagine trying to be involved with a man. They have been to hurt and damaged by men in their life time. I’m not say that these reasons make it okay for them to be involved in homosexual relationships, but I am saying that when we are trying to show the love of Christ to someone in a situation like this, how loving do we really come across when we are telling them they are living in sin. For many of them, this is the first time they have felt loved and had a somewhat healthy connection with another person.
Greg, I understand where you were going with your original post, but when you start off with the Bible passages and then work your way down to speaking about loving all people, but not accepting their sin you may have lost some people. I started getting irritated with the post, but forced myself to read all the way down to the end. I guess one of my biggest problems with this whole homosexuality thing is that Christians seem to love to “condemn” this behaviour and speak about it with their Christian rhetoric but for many they don’t really know anyone who has ever struggled with these feelings.
Christian are continually getting into conversations about homosexuals, but ignore the massive amount of Christian teens who are engaging in pre-marital sex, or a married person who indulges in porn when their marriage is not fulfilling their sexual needs. And even when these topics are discussed once again, the only way they are discussed is with condemnation making the person who has sinned feel like they are a horrible person who can never be forgiven. Instead of loving them and allowing them to be healed by God’s love we talk to people who have sinned with an air of superiority making them feel like dirt. We are all sinners, why are we always so eager to point out someone elses faults. Let’s not forget Luke 6:42 “How can you think of saying, ‘Friend,let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.” -
October 08, 2008 5:41:44 pm
I would like to say, that these posts have helped me very much with a problem that we are experiencing in our youth group. We have a gay non-believing couple of young men who are currently attending our youth group. We have taken fire from concerned parents for the way we are handling the situation. I would ask for all of your prayers for the youth group that i work with. Finally I would like to reaffirm the supremecy of the Scriptures as our source for the knowledge of salvation and godliness. I stand by every letter of every word. Those that convict us of our sin and those that offer us grace and mercy. The Church must stand on the scriptures if it is to have any power to win the world for Christ in this dark and trying age.
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October 08, 2008 6:55:10 pm
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November 21, 2008 11:33:12 pm
Wow big news i wonder how this came about a man surrounded by God and he chooses an “alternitive lifestyle” i am just blown away
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January 08, 2009 11:44:49 am
Why is him coming out a “bad” thing? Typical conservative freaks like yourself have nothing better to do than worry about what others do in their lives and in their bedrooms.
Get a life
Greg Reply:
January 8th, 2009 at 8:35 pmI am conservative and a freak, but buddy, I am not typical. BTW, don’t you have anything better to do that worry about others write on their blogs? Enjoy your life.
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January 09, 2009 1:17:08 pm
“That is so damn ridiculous. If you listened to anything the Bible said, you’d be going to hell for not hating your parents too. The Bible is a book written by first century man and is completely irrelevant today.
The Bible also says that if your kids misbehave, you have the right to beat them and if they still misbehave, you then have the right to kill them. The Bible also says it’s okay to own slaves as long as you don’t blind them or hurt their teeth.
The Bible is fucking ridiculous and Christians cherry pick entries from it to suit their own agendas. I can’t wait for the day when everyone thinks it’s ridiculous that man used to think homosexuality was a sin because it said it in the Bible. Just as we laugh today because the Bible says eating shellfish is a sin.
Fuck the Bible and fuck religion. Religion is not about love, it only promotes intolerance and starts wars. Fuck Christians, Jews, and Islams. You are all brainwashed idiots who cannot think for yourselves.”Cody was correct, why did you remove his comment? because you are afraid of the truth?
Dont think about what he said too hard though, deep thought is the terror of the religious mind.
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November 13, 2012 12:38:56 am
I think one of the most important questions anyone can ask themselves is why they believe what they believe, and I think we need to revisit this question constantly if we are to firmly understand ourselves and our choices.
Greg, I remember watching your first Gospel Journey series in my Youth Group four or five years ago, and I know from the content of that series and your sermons and your blog you are a devout follower of Christ, and that most of the people who read and respond to this blog are among his fellowship. I already see this response is going to be longer than I intended, but please bear with me.
I’ve fallen out of the faith, for many reasons. Paramount among them that my faith in God was simply not strong enough to support all the Bible’s teachings, and I could not reconcile those beliefs with what I honestly felt and observed in the life I had lived and continue to live. I continue to confront my beliefs today, to try to fully understand them.
I firmly believe the demonization of homosexuality, both the individual and the behavior is immoral. The verses you’ve quoted have deemed it unnatural and immoral, and yet I feel we must look at the world around us if the scripture we put so much stock into is to have any meaning in our lives. It’s a scientific fact that almost all animal species that reproduce sexually exhibit homosexual behavior. Even if it is not a dominant behavior, it is still prevalent enough among these species to be consider natural behavior.
Greg, you referred to Ray’s confession as “succumb[ing] to the dark urges within,” but in all good relationships I’ve been privileged to observe, love is always apparent, and that is across ever sexual orientation imaginable. Should not love in coupling be most important?
Too often we stratify our beliefs in accord with the contrasts we see in life. Racism, bigotry, sexism, slavery, genocide all stem from hate or intolerance based on an observable difference someone, somewhere chose to elevate beyond all other aspects of a human being. The damage I see in adopting a philosophy that says “love the sinner, hate the sin” in this case is that we are condemning a behavior that is fully conductive to supporting a loving relationship and in no way affects the wellbeing on any other person whatever that sexual leanings. I know the limits of my own beliefs, but I will never condone behavior that prohibits the freedoms I enjoy for the sake of those beliefs, and that at core is my fundamental beef with anyone who opposes and actively tries to demonize homosexuality or any adult consenting sexual leaning for that matter.
Consider this possibility: there are numerous individuals past and present who are classifiable hermaphrodites or unisex. In different severities they have the traits, sometimes purely on a genetic level sometimes in appearance and genitalia, of both men and women. Regardless of their appearance or sexual orientation, are we to condemn any unisex individual if they were to love and marry any man or woman? I imagine many on this post would say we wouldn’t or would struggle to rationalize why we would. For anyone who takes pause at this possibility, consider that at core what you may be opposing in this case is just a different kind of love, just as everyone’s love and relationships are unique to themselves and their companions, and that by even tacitly suggesting that fellow human beings are engaged in immoral relationships just because they are different from our own are dehumanizing those people as well as their behavior. I cannot justify that rationalization to myself.
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I guess the only thing that I can say is love the person, not the sin.
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