Comments on: My problem with HELL http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/ Relentlessly pursuing Christ and His Cause Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:20:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: Noidgegrott http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-176142 Noidgegrott Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:56:04 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-176142 Greetings i new on here, I hope i will help out. Thanks. Greetings i new on here, I hope i will help out.

Thanks.

]]> By: Greg http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-48348 Greg Wed, 06 Feb 2008 15:49:58 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-48348 Paul, Peter, Jude and John all write about hell in very literal terms...not to mention Jesus. As to whether or not Paul referred to hell check out 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power." As to whether or not the NT writers made mistakes...um...the entire concept of inerrancy. Pull that rug out and all theology is have-it-your-way. As for justice, maybe the mistake we make here is defining what divine justice should look like by how we define it humanly. But his thoughts are higher than ours and his ways higher than our ways. Hell is hell. It does not wait on our acceptance of it. It burns in spite of our defining our redefining our conceptions of it or misconceptions. It is what it is. God is who he is. He is loving and he is holy. Hence the dichotomy. But it is not his problem. It is ours. Paul, Peter, Jude and John all write about hell in very literal terms…not to mention Jesus. As to whether or not Paul referred to hell check out 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.” As to whether or not the NT writers made mistakes…um…the entire concept of inerrancy. Pull that rug out and all theology is have-it-your-way. As for justice, maybe the mistake we make here is defining what divine justice should look like by how we define it humanly. But his thoughts are higher than ours and his ways higher than our ways.

Hell is hell. It does not wait on our acceptance of it. It burns in spite of our defining our redefining our conceptions of it or misconceptions. It is what it is. God is who he is. He is loving and he is holy. Hence the dichotomy. But it is not his problem. It is ours.

]]> By: societyvs http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-48336 societyvs Wed, 06 Feb 2008 15:08:49 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-48336 My problem with Hell - societyVS "And maybe that question is the problem. Oftentimes the 21st Century version of the Christian God is just loving instead of just and loving. The just part of God (that demands absolute justice, holiness, perfection) has been minimized and the loving part of God (that shows mercy, grace and forgiveness) has been maximized." (Greg) The question isn't the problem - the ducking, dodging, and evading of the realities of what hell as a doctrine means is the problem. First, we can look at God's justice and you can tell me if it is just? (a) Someone does not 'accept' Christ (as you think needs to be done) so they go to a place of eternal torment/torture...and all this because someone had a little pride? Is pride the going rate for torture these daya and do we Christians actually believe anything remotely close to that elsewehere in scripture? (b) Humans live for approximately 70 years - and if we fail to 'choose' we go to hell for how many years? Eternity - that's right - forever. So in essence, God is judging a human's 70 years with a judgement of eternal torture - does the punishment fit the crime? What is truly funny about this is God asks of us to be 'fair' in our judgments yet in His we see an absolute carelessness for this idea - granted - if your doctrine is true. (c) Hell as a doctrine is not something most of us 'believe in' - we say we do - but we do not live by it's dictates. Think about it rationally for one simple second - look at the Holocaust and the extreme tortures that happened to innocent humans in that scenario - everyone stood up and condemnded that action (even you Greg). But think about it - you have no right to - isn't this what non-Christians deserve anyways as part of God's justice? Secondly, love as a concept - an all Loving God and hell: (a) I Cor 13 - is love torture? Does love contain any kind of torture in it? Well, God is love isn't He? (b) God is love - do any of you love your mother, sister, child, etc? Can you imagine sending that person you care deeply about into a eternal lake of fire to burn forever and you watching it the whole time? I am not sure about anyone else in here - but that doesn't seem loving to me. (c) An all loving God - who loved us so much - He sent his son to die on the cross for the sins of all humanity (a moving action) - has in Him the pettiness of thought to destroy and torture human life for the mere non-acceptance of Him? Better watch out - think about this long enough and you start to develop schizophrenia. Fact is, hell/hades/Gehenna/Hinnom - none of these are mentioned in the Tanakh nor do they ever get uttered by Paul (also the earliest writer). Hades is a 'greek word' and not Jewish or Aramaic - yet it also appears in the bible. Is it possible the NT writers adopted ideas or made mistakes with the idea 'hell' when writing the sayings of Jesus? Maybe the idea was added in later on - cause I am not sure where in the 'hell' Jesus would even pull this from - being Jewish and not Greek - unless he's using Greek thought to prove a point? That's what is truly strange about this whole thing concerning hell. My problem with Hell – societyVS

“And maybe that question is the problem. Oftentimes the 21st Century version of the Christian God is just loving instead of just and loving. The just part of God (that demands absolute justice, holiness, perfection) has been minimized and the loving part of God (that shows mercy, grace and forgiveness) has been maximized.” (Greg)

The question isn’t the problem – the ducking, dodging, and evading of the realities of what hell as a doctrine means is the problem.

First, we can look at God’s justice and you can tell me if it is just?

(a) Someone does not ‘accept’ Christ (as you think needs to be done) so they go to a place of eternal torment/torture…and all this because someone had a little pride? Is pride the going rate for torture these daya and do we Christians actually believe anything remotely close to that elsewehere in scripture?

(b) Humans live for approximately 70 years – and if we fail to ‘choose’ we go to hell for how many years? Eternity – that’s right – forever. So in essence, God is judging a human’s 70 years with a judgement of eternal torture – does the punishment fit the crime? What is truly funny about this is God asks of us to be ‘fair’ in our judgments yet in His we see an absolute carelessness for this idea – granted – if your doctrine is true.

(c) Hell as a doctrine is not something most of us ‘believe in’ – we say we do – but we do not live by it’s dictates. Think about it rationally for one simple second – look at the Holocaust and the extreme tortures that happened to innocent humans in that scenario – everyone stood up and condemnded that action (even you Greg). But think about it – you have no right to – isn’t this what non-Christians deserve anyways as part of God’s justice?

Secondly, love as a concept – an all Loving God and hell:

(a) I Cor 13 – is love torture? Does love contain any kind of torture in it? Well, God is love isn’t He?

(b) God is love – do any of you love your mother, sister, child, etc? Can you imagine sending that person you care deeply about into a eternal lake of fire to burn forever and you watching it the whole time? I am not sure about anyone else in here – but that doesn’t seem loving to me.

(c) An all loving God – who loved us so much – He sent his son to die on the cross for the sins of all humanity (a moving action) – has in Him the pettiness of thought to destroy and torture human life for the mere non-acceptance of Him? Better watch out – think about this long enough and you start to develop schizophrenia.

Fact is, hell/hades/Gehenna/Hinnom – none of these are mentioned in the Tanakh nor do they ever get uttered by Paul (also the earliest writer). Hades is a ‘greek word’ and not Jewish or Aramaic – yet it also appears in the bible. Is it possible the NT writers adopted ideas or made mistakes with the idea ‘hell’ when writing the sayings of Jesus? Maybe the idea was added in later on – cause I am not sure where in the ‘hell’ Jesus would even pull this from – being Jewish and not Greek – unless he’s using Greek thought to prove a point? That’s what is truly strange about this whole thing concerning hell.

]]> By: Dan Marvin http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-29165 Dan Marvin Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:19:48 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-29165 Believe and receive is false doctrine and is NOT Biblical. Even the devil believes in Jesus. The Bible is clear on what we have to do for salvation and that is Repent (turn away from sinning) and Trust in Jesus and put your Faith in Him to run your life. God’s word declares that this is God's plan of salvation; 1. Hear the WORD of God. 2. Believe that Jesus is the Messiah. 3. Repent of your ways that are contrary to God’s will. 4. Be Baptized INTO Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 5. Remain faithful to the Covenant you have made with God. Believe and receive is false doctrine and is NOT Biblical. Even the devil believes in Jesus. The Bible is clear on what we have to do for salvation and that is Repent (turn away from sinning) and Trust in Jesus and put your Faith in Him to run your life.

God’s word declares that this is God’s plan of salvation; 1. Hear the WORD of God. 2. Believe that Jesus is the Messiah. 3. Repent of your ways that are contrary to God’s will. 4. Be Baptized INTO Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 5. Remain faithful to the Covenant you have made with God.

]]> By: Greg http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-10187 Greg Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:01:15 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-10187 <p>Ken,</p> <p>Remember that salvation is not a matter of trying to stop sinning. Remember what Ephesians 2:8 and 9 tells us, "For it is by grace you have been saved THROUGH faith. This is a gift of God and not by works, so that no one can boast." Salvation is received through faith in Christ alone, not through our good deeds. Put your trust in him and what he did for you on the cross and you are saved, whether you feel like it or not.</p> <p>Just believe and receive. Greg</p> Ken,

Remember that salvation is not a matter of trying to stop sinning. Remember what Ephesians 2:8 and 9 tells us, "For it is by grace you have been saved THROUGH faith. This is a gift of God and not by works, so that no one can boast." Salvation is received through faith in Christ alone, not through our good deeds. Put your trust in him and what he did for you on the cross and you are saved, whether you feel like it or not.

Just believe and receive. Greg

]]> By: Ken http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-10186 Ken Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:27:39 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-10186 Dear Brothers and Sisters:  I suffer from severe insomnia and depression.  Lately, I feel as if these are the prelude to being destined for hell.  I have repented from my sins (I am trying to stop smoking) and I profess Christ as Lord but I don't feel saved.  Please pray for me.  Thank You. Ken Johnson Dear Brothers and Sisters:  I suffer from severe insomnia and depression.  Lately, I feel as if these are the prelude to being destined for hell.  I have repented from my sins (I am trying to stop smoking) and I profess Christ as Lord but I don’t feel saved.  Please pray for me.  Thank You. Ken Johnson

]]> By: Dan http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-7589 Dan Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:39:53 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-7589 There are two people that reject the bible and God. There are those that feel so guilty they have done something horribly wrong that they feel they would never be forgiven for it. Then there are those who like the lifestyle or (sin) so much that they don’t want to give it up for God or anyone. They think that they couldn’t live without that sin or lifestyle. What good is it for someone to gain the entire world only to loose his soul? I am here to tell you my friend that you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. We must do in <strong>Hebrews 11:25</strong><strong> “</strong>Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season."  “Guilt disables spiritual growth and is a deceptive form of self-indulgence, creating an obsessive inward focus.  A guilty conscience leads not to repentance but repetitive <em>I’m sorry’s, </em>not for God’s sake but our own—a desperate attempt to feel better and clear away the dark, sorrowful shroud surrounding the heart.  Greatest of all, guilt separates us from God—naked, hiding behind the bushes of shame.  The big, holy God and little, sinful man, Perfect Father and the inadequate, filthy-rags son.  Down through the ages, Religion has reinforced guilt in a multitude of ways.  Huge, monolithic sanctuaries fit for the presence of God, reducing man to awed ants.” We are to have a relationship with Jesus; it is not about religion at all. Conviction, yes—guilt, no! There are two people that reject the bible and God. There are those that feel so guilty they have done something horribly wrong that they feel they would never be forgiven for it. Then there are those who like the lifestyle or (sin) so much that they don’t want to give it up for God or anyone. They think that they couldn’t live without that sin or lifestyle. What good is it for someone to gain the entire world only to loose his soul? I am here to tell you my friend that you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. We must do in Hebrews 11:25 “Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season."  “Guilt disables spiritual growth and is a deceptive form of self-indulgence, creating an obsessive inward focus.  A guilty conscience leads not to repentance but repetitive I’m sorry’s, not for God’s sake but our own—a desperate attempt to feel better and clear away the dark, sorrowful shroud surrounding the heart.  Greatest of all, guilt separates us from God—naked, hiding behind the bushes of shame.  The big, holy God and little, sinful man, Perfect Father and the inadequate, filthy-rags son.  Down through the ages, Religion has reinforced guilt in a multitude of ways.  Huge, monolithic sanctuaries fit for the presence of God, reducing man to awed ants.” We are to have a relationship with Jesus; it is not about religion at all. Conviction, yes—guilt, no!

]]> By: Dan http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-7510 Dan Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:48:20 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-7510 Greg, The law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don't realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments. I preach law to the proud and grace to the humble. You can not bring the "good news" to anyone proud and that doesn't feel that they do not need a savior. That is the exact reason for <strong>Matthew 7:6</strong>  "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your <strong>pearls</strong> before <strong>swine</strong>, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." If you just talk about Gods mercy then you will not reach people that need the savior. You will just get a bunch of people to “invite Jesus into their heart” and not get any true repentant souls. That is what you have to do to be saved. Repent and trust in Jesus like you would a parachute. (Faith) I deal with a lot of what is called false converts that say a little prayer without understanding why they need a savior. Without Jesus ALL will go to hell because we are lying thiefs adulterers at heart. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Psalm 111:10. You are wrong to delete Jesus out of the authority of the commandments because without him it is just good advice, right? Yea it's wrong to lie that is good advice. But with the authority of God behind it that in revelations 21:8 it says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. dmarvin811.blogspot.com Greg, The law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don’t realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments. I preach law to the proud and grace to the humble. You can not bring the "good news" to anyone proud and that doesn’t feel that they do not need a savior. That is the exact reason for Matthew 7:6  "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." If you just talk about Gods mercy then you will not reach people that need the savior. You will just get a bunch of people to “invite Jesus into their heart” and not get any true repentant souls. That is what you have to do to be saved. Repent and trust in Jesus like you would a parachute. (Faith) I deal with a lot of what is called false converts that say a little prayer without understanding why they need a savior. Without Jesus ALL will go to hell because we are lying thiefs adulterers at heart. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Psalm 111:10. You are wrong to delete Jesus out of the authority of the commandments because without him it is just good advice, right? Yea it’s wrong to lie that is good advice. But with the authority of God behind it that in revelations 21:8 it says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. dmarvin811.blogspot.com

]]> By: Brian http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-5019 Brian Tue, 16 Jan 2007 18:11:17 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-5019 Excellent post - really gets me thinking. I hear allot of people say, "God wouldn't send me to hell for (insert sinful activity here).  I'm not such a bad person" etc.  Ultimately, God IS the judge of whether He will or won't do anything at all, including that - but what is there in heaven for us?  Heaven is the place where God has His throne - where He is worshipped day and night, where He pours out His love on those who love Him.  In a nutshell, it's the ultimate place of His kingdom, where His presence is inescapable.  If someone is not interested in a relationship with the All-Powerful, Infinate Living God, then the real question isn't whether or not He will "send me to hell".  The question that matters is, "what is my place in heaven?"  If you want to be there, God sent us a roadmap... Excellent post – really gets me thinking. I hear allot of people say, "God wouldn’t send me to hell for (insert sinful activity here).  I’m not such a bad person" etc.  Ultimately, God IS the judge of whether He will or won’t do anything at all, including that – but what is there in heaven for us?  Heaven is the place where God has His throne – where He is worshipped day and night, where He pours out His love on those who love Him.  In a nutshell, it’s the ultimate place of His kingdom, where His presence is inescapable.  If someone is not interested in a relationship with the All-Powerful, Infinate Living God, then the real question isn’t whether or not He will "send me to hell".  The question that matters is, "what is my place in heaven?"  If you want to be there, God sent us a roadmap…

]]> By: Tony Russo http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-4961 Tony Russo Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:14:38 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/my-problem-with-hell#comment-4961 One of the things I thought important oin my personal study about hell, was to look up each of the Greek words that are translated "hell" in the English Bible.  In the New Testament especially, there are only 4.  Matt 5:22 uses strong's #1067 (Gehenna). This is the familiar one that refers to a fire that burned in the garbage site on the western side of Jerusalem in biblical times. The second, #1076 (#1078 which is only found once in James 3:6). Both are simply another form of #1067. In Acts 2:27 is strong's #86, the word "hades." There is only one meaning to this word in the Greek language and it means "grave." #5020 is "Tartaroósas," found only in 2 Peter 2:4. That's it, just these few are translated as "hell" in the New Testament. #1067, Gehenna, from the context of its use, refers to a future fire, probably the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20. Hades is "grave." Translators have chose to make us believe that this is a place of eternal burning.  Nonsense, hades carries no such meaning.  The last one, #5020, "Tartaroosas," is the fire that is reserved for the devil and his angels, which of course is future. Nowhere in Scripture is there found a word that fits the English description for a place of burning for the wicked. Revelation 20:10 does use the word "tormented" in terms of a forever process. But "tormented" is a word that means, "testing the stone." In ancient days if you wanted to know the value of gold or silver you would have taken it to an assyer. They would take the precious metal and rub it against a particular type of stone that when the metal was rubbed on the stone the assayer would be able to determine the value of the metal. Isaiah 28:16 refers to this type of stone, Old Testment strong's #976 which has to do with testing precious metals. In Romans 9:33, Paul quotes Isaiah's word for this stone as referring to Christ. The inference is that our charater is placed along side Christ in the judgement.  Paul states in 1 Cor 3:10-13 that our lives will reveal what kind of metal we are made of (or building on) in the fire. Nowhere would such a view of things make more sense than at the time of Revelation 20:10 in the lake of ifre.  The testing of the character by fire at that time will demonstrate what each person was trully made of.  Jesus invites us in Revelation 3:18, "I cousel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich..." His character is spiritual gold to us.  With Christ within, the testing fires will show that we belong to Him. Fire will puritfy the gold. Everything else will perish "forever." One of the things I thought important oin my personal study about hell, was to look up each of the Greek words that are translated "hell" in the English Bible.  In the New Testament especially, there are only 4.  Matt 5:22 uses strong’s #1067 (Gehenna). This is the familiar one that refers to a fire that burned in the garbage site on the western side of Jerusalem in biblical times. The second, #1076 (#1078 which is only found once in James 3:6). Both are simply another form of #1067. In Acts 2:27 is strong’s #86, the word "hades." There is only one meaning to this word in the Greek language and it means "grave." #5020 is "Tartaroósas," found only in 2 Peter 2:4. That’s it, just these few are translated as "hell" in the New Testament. #1067, Gehenna, from the context of its use, refers to a future fire, probably the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20. Hades is "grave." Translators have chose to make us believe that this is a place of eternal burning.  Nonsense, hades carries no such meaning.  The last one, #5020, "Tartaroosas," is the fire that is reserved for the devil and his angels, which of course is future. Nowhere in Scripture is there found a word that fits the English description for a place of burning for the wicked. Revelation 20:10 does use the word "tormented" in terms of a forever process. But "tormented" is a word that means, "testing the stone." In ancient days if you wanted to know the value of gold or silver you would have taken it to an assyer. They would take the precious metal and rub it against a particular type of stone that when the metal was rubbed on the stone the assayer would be able to determine the value of the metal. Isaiah 28:16 refers to this type of stone, Old Testment strong’s #976 which has to do with testing precious metals. In Romans 9:33, Paul quotes Isaiah’s word for this stone as referring to Christ. The inference is that our charater is placed along side Christ in the judgement.  Paul states in 1 Cor 3:10-13 that our lives will reveal what kind of metal we are made of (or building on) in the fire. Nowhere would such a view of things make more sense than at the time of Revelation 20:10 in the lake of ifre.  The testing of the character by fire at that time will demonstrate what each person was trully made of.  Jesus invites us in Revelation 3:18, "I cousel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich…" His character is spiritual gold to us.  With Christ within, the testing fires will show that we belong to Him. Fire will puritfy the gold. Everything else will perish "forever."

]]>