Comments on: “Just one thing” I hate http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/ Relentlessly pursuing Christ and His Cause Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:20:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: Zack http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-23271 Zack Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:33:23 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-23271 Greg here's something to think about: "Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like a cheapjack's wares.  The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut-rate prices.  Grace is represented as the Church's inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits.  Grace without price; grace without cost!  And the essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing….That is what we mean by cheap grace, the grace which amounts to the justification of sin without the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sins departs…Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him. Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must the asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price, and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.” These words were written by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a man who knew firsthand, and who testified with his life, that our faith requires everything of us. He stood up in the face of a church who had gone to bed with the Nazis, a church who had decided that the Christian faith didn't require anything other than "just believing." He wrote these words from inside a jail cell, not long before he was executed at a concentration camp for living the faith instead of just talking about it. "Faith without action is dead", those were words of James, and the life of Bonhoeffer and all the Christian saints that have come before us. Are James' words less important than Paul's? The "works" of the faith are not "pre"-requisites, they are "post"-requisites. And by the way, Bonhoeffer went to seminary, then he taught at one. (His students died for what they learned there, guess they should have taken your advice and stayed at home.)   Greg here’s something to think about: "Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like a cheapjack’s wares.  The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut-rate prices.  Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits.  Grace without price; grace without cost!  And the essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing….That is what we mean by cheap grace, the grace which amounts to the justification of sin without the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sins departs…Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him. Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must the asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price, and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.” These words were written by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a man who knew firsthand, and who testified with his life, that our faith requires everything of us. He stood up in the face of a church who had gone to bed with the Nazis, a church who had decided that the Christian faith didn’t require anything other than "just believing." He wrote these words from inside a jail cell, not long before he was executed at a concentration camp for living the faith instead of just talking about it. "Faith without action is dead", those were words of James, and the life of Bonhoeffer and all the Christian saints that have come before us. Are James’ words less important than Paul’s? The "works" of the faith are not "pre"-requisites, they are "post"-requisites. And by the way, Bonhoeffer went to seminary, then he taught at one. (His students died for what they learned there, guess they should have taken your advice and stayed at home.)  

]]> By: Greg http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-21786 Greg Tue, 28 Aug 2007 03:49:31 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-21786 <p>NLCarden-I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.</p> <p>We are either saved by works or by faith. It can't be by both (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5 and the entire book of Galatians.)</p> <p>God's grace is cheapened when we add just one work to it...so much so that Paul said if the Galatians wanted to add circumcision as a salvation prerequisite they'd be obligating themselves to obey the whole law. One work, no matter how seemingly small, ruins the principle of grace just like one drop of arsenic ruins a bottle of clear water.</p> NLCarden-I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

We are either saved by works or by faith. It can’t be by both (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5 and the entire book of Galatians.)

God’s grace is cheapened when we add just one work to it…so much so that Paul said if the Galatians wanted to add circumcision as a salvation prerequisite they’d be obligating themselves to obey the whole law. One work, no matter how seemingly small, ruins the principle of grace just like one drop of arsenic ruins a bottle of clear water.

]]> By: nlcarden http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-21764 nlcarden Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:18:29 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-21764 Greg - I respectfully disagree with the approach that you take in your article regarding what salvation means. Christian faith is not simply cognitive ascent to certain propositions about Christ's nature and atoning work (although some Pauline language might suggest that). The New Testament and the history of Christianity both testify to Christians being baptized members of a community of faith. Salvation should not be construed as an instance in time, but a journey that begins in moment in time and upon which we are led for the duration of our human lives. Hence Jesus command to follow him rather than simply agree to certain descriptions of him. Faith is following Jesus Christ of Nazareth and following him includes baptism, church attendance, confession, prayer and many other Christian practices. The sacrament of water baptism does not negate the necessity for faith of the heart, but neither is it irrelevant for human conversion. Engaging in these practices does not equate to salvation by works, buy are derivative of faith and the means to gain faith. If we limit faith to any less of a definition, God's grace is cheapened. Blessings - NLCarden Greg – I respectfully disagree with the approach that you take in your article regarding what salvation means. Christian faith is not simply cognitive ascent to certain propositions about Christ’s nature and atoning work (although some Pauline language might suggest that). The New Testament and the history of Christianity both testify to Christians being baptized members of a community of faith. Salvation should not be construed as an instance in time, but a journey that begins in moment in time and upon which we are led for the duration of our human lives. Hence Jesus command to follow him rather than simply agree to certain descriptions of him. Faith is following Jesus Christ of Nazareth and following him includes baptism, church attendance, confession, prayer and many other Christian practices. The sacrament of water baptism does not negate the necessity for faith of the heart, but neither is it irrelevant for human conversion. Engaging in these practices does not equate to salvation by works, buy are derivative of faith and the means to gain faith. If we limit faith to any less of a definition, God’s grace is cheapened. Blessings – NLCarden

]]> By: Teddy http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-17752 Teddy Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:30:34 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-17752 Thanks Greg. -Teddy Thanks Greg. -Teddy

]]> By: Greg http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-17721 Greg Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:19:33 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-17721 <p>Hey Teddy,</p> <p>Great question. Romans 10:2-10 is using a form of writing called a Hebrew parallelism. In other words, if you look specifically there are five different things that you have to "do" to be saved: confess with your mouth, believe in your heart, call on the name of the Lord, etc. But, if you understand that often in the Hebrew culture you would say one thing in several ways (the parallelism) it becomes clear that Paul is just saying there is one thing you have to do to be saved (i.e. "believe") but is using five descriptions of this one thing. Another way to look at it is this: If confessing with your mouth was a necessary separate act then it should be mentioned every single time believe is used as a requirement for salvation.</p> <p>As for your other question: when someone trusts in Christ it's fine to lead them through a prayer and important to get them water baptized. Its VITAL though that they understand that neither saves them. It's through faith alone in Christ alone that we are saved.</p> <p>Hope that helps!</p> Hey Teddy,

Great question. Romans 10:2-10 is using a form of writing called a Hebrew parallelism. In other words, if you look specifically there are five different things that you have to "do" to be saved: confess with your mouth, believe in your heart, call on the name of the Lord, etc. But, if you understand that often in the Hebrew culture you would say one thing in several ways (the parallelism) it becomes clear that Paul is just saying there is one thing you have to do to be saved (i.e. "believe") but is using five descriptions of this one thing. Another way to look at it is this: If confessing with your mouth was a necessary separate act then it should be mentioned every single time believe is used as a requirement for salvation.

As for your other question: when someone trusts in Christ it’s fine to lead them through a prayer and important to get them water baptized. Its VITAL though that they understand that neither saves them. It’s through faith alone in Christ alone that we are saved.

Hope that helps!

]]> By: Teddy http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-17597 Teddy Wed, 04 Jul 2007 03:21:39 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-17597 Hmmm, this post has lots of good stuff. I grew up in a church where water baptism was considered a requirement to salvation. I wrestled with that one when I decided to change churches about a year ago to one that saw salvation closer to how you describe it. So I read through as much scripture as I could find on it and the concept that grace is "by faith alone" is absolutely evident in the Bible particularly in Galatians as you mentioned in your post. One scripture throws a wrench in this however: "That is the word of faith we are proclaiming: that if you confess with your mouth that 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you are justified and saved." (Romans 10:9-10). This verse talks about believing and confessing (specifically confession "with the mouth") both as parts of salvation. How does this verse fit in with salvation if confession as a requirement would make it salvation by works? Furthermore, there is also a very practical question that I am wrestling with right now: if you witness to someone and they want to follow Christ, what specifically do you as an evangelist do so that they can become Christians? Some recommend praying with them, others recommend to ask them to confess Christ, while still others (as in my old church) recommend water baptism, all of which are considered "strings attached" by this teaching. What do you do when someone wants to follow Christ? I'm looking for a little help here. Hmmm, this post has lots of good stuff. I grew up in a church where water baptism was considered a requirement to salvation. I wrestled with that one when I decided to change churches about a year ago to one that saw salvation closer to how you describe it. So I read through as much scripture as I could find on it and the concept that grace is "by faith alone" is absolutely evident in the Bible particularly in Galatians as you mentioned in your post. One scripture throws a wrench in this however: "That is the word of faith we are proclaiming: that if you confess with your mouth that ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you are justified and saved." (Romans 10:9-10). This verse talks about believing and confessing (specifically confession "with the mouth") both as parts of salvation. How does this verse fit in with salvation if confession as a requirement would make it salvation by works? Furthermore, there is also a very practical question that I am wrestling with right now: if you witness to someone and they want to follow Christ, what specifically do you as an evangelist do so that they can become Christians? Some recommend praying with them, others recommend to ask them to confess Christ, while still others (as in my old church) recommend water baptism, all of which are considered "strings attached" by this teaching. What do you do when someone wants to follow Christ? I’m looking for a little help here.

]]> By: Brian http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-16765 Brian Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:16:15 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-16765 Amen! Thanks for another awesome post! Simliar thoughts as well. I recently wrote a post titled <a href="http://brianford.wordpress.com/2007/06/16/coco-the-dog-contending-for-the-faith/" rel="nofollow">"Coco the Dog and Contending for the Faith."</a> Amen! Thanks for another awesome post! Simliar thoughts as well. I recently wrote a post titled "Coco the Dog and Contending for the Faith."

]]> By: Greg Stier http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-16764 Greg Stier Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:53:55 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-16764 Hey Carolyn, Yes I believe that repentance for the remission of sins is absolutely essential for salvation. The word "repent" comes from the Greek word metanaeo which means literally "to perceive differently afterwards" i.e "a complete change of mind." It depends on what context the word is used in to determine what someone is changing their minds from and to. John the Baptist used it in context of sin when rebuking the Israelites for preparing the way for the coming Messiah (Jesus). He was preparing the way for Jesus to be ruler of Israel and for Jesus to be able to do that the Jews had to be spiritually ready and receptive. But as you know according to John 1:12, "He came unto his own but his own received him not."  Peter used the word "repent" in Acts 2:36-38 when referring to how the Jews perceived Jesus. They needed to repent (aka "change their mind) from thinking he was just some rogue rabbi to who he truly was "Lord and Christ." I personally believe that repentance and faith are almost synomous. If not then how could these words be used so interchangeably? When you believe you repent (i.e. have a complete change of mind) and when you repent you believe (i.e. trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins). If this weren't true then there would be two separate steps to salvation and Jesus himself would have preached an incomplete gospel much of the time (when he commanded people to "repent" but didn't mention the word "believe" or called people to "believe" but didn't mention the word "repent".) Actually, the whole book of John was written to a primarily unbelieving audience (John 20:31) and John doesn't used the word "repent" once. Yet he used the word "believe" 98xs just in the verb form. Does this mean that he didn't believe in repentance? NO! But again that's why I believe these words communicate the same thing. When you trust in Christ alone for the salvation of your soul you are completely changing your mind about who he is, what you deserve (hell not heaven) and how you are saved (by faith and not by works.) If someone doesn't truly repent they could never truly believe! Hey Carolyn, Yes I believe that repentance for the remission of sins is absolutely essential for salvation. The word "repent" comes from the Greek word metanaeo which means literally "to perceive differently afterwards" i.e "a complete change of mind." It depends on what context the word is used in to determine what someone is changing their minds from and to. John the Baptist used it in context of sin when rebuking the Israelites for preparing the way for the coming Messiah (Jesus). He was preparing the way for Jesus to be ruler of Israel and for Jesus to be able to do that the Jews had to be spiritually ready and receptive. But as you know according to John 1:12, "He came unto his own but his own received him not."  Peter used the word "repent" in Acts 2:36-38 when referring to how the Jews perceived Jesus. They needed to repent (aka "change their mind) from thinking he was just some rogue rabbi to who he truly was "Lord and Christ." I personally believe that repentance and faith are almost synomous. If not then how could these words be used so interchangeably? When you believe you repent (i.e. have a complete change of mind) and when you repent you believe (i.e. trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins). If this weren’t true then there would be two separate steps to salvation and Jesus himself would have preached an incomplete gospel much of the time (when he commanded people to "repent" but didn’t mention the word "believe" or called people to "believe" but didn’t mention the word "repent".) Actually, the whole book of John was written to a primarily unbelieving audience (John 20:31) and John doesn’t used the word "repent" once. Yet he used the word "believe" 98xs just in the verb form. Does this mean that he didn’t believe in repentance? NO! But again that’s why I believe these words communicate the same thing. When you trust in Christ alone for the salvation of your soul you are completely changing your mind about who he is, what you deserve (hell not heaven) and how you are saved (by faith and not by works.) If someone doesn’t truly repent they could never truly believe!

]]> By: Carolyn http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-16716 Carolyn Sat, 23 Jun 2007 06:04:19 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-16716 repentance for remission of sins? repentance for remission of sins?

]]> By: Becky http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate/comment-page-1/#comment-16701 Becky Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:44:57 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/just-one-thing-i-hate#comment-16701 By the way I really enjoyed the podcast.It rocked! ~Becky~ By the way I really enjoyed the podcast.It rocked! ~Becky~

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