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Fight Club for Christians

Posted on Wednesday 30 January 2008 by Greg @ 11:04 am
Filed under: Rants

Every week we do a chapel service for the staff at Dare 2 Share. All 48 of us gather to pray, worship, get updates and get fed from the Word of God. One of the things that I love about our D2S team is that they often taunt me during my talks. If I slip at all it is a free for all of “loving” sarcasm and preacher-focused heckles.

But I get to dish it out too. Ha!

This week I’m starting a new series called “Fighting Words” that should lead to plenty of heckles (and not just from the Dare 2 Share staff, but also from my online friends.) This seven week series is built around seven sentences that should start a “fight” when Christians utter them. In other words these are sentences that I believe that we as Christians should stand up against.

Of course when I talk about this “Fight Club for Christians” I’m not talking about flying fists. I’m not even talking about angry screaming, pointing and blog flogging. I’m talking about engaging in real conversation in defense of the truth with gentleness and respect. Our Fight Club doesn’t end in bloody noses but paper cuts…from scouring the pages of Scripture in search of the truth.

Here are the seven sentences that, in my opinion, are fighting words:

1. “Christians shouldn’t debate theology.”

Did you know that it is a command of God to defend the truth of God’s Word against those who dare oppose it? Check out the words of Jude, “Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written abou long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Christians need to “contend for the faith” in love, but they need to do it. If we don’t then the garden of truth will be overrun with the weeds of heresy.

2. “Every religion ultimately leads to God.”

There is a growing universalism in the church today that states or implies (my more tricky friends do this a lot) that if someone truly follows their religion and whoever their concept of God is that God will let them into heaven. But Jesus himself took serious exception to this when he claimed to be the sole way to the Father in John 14:6. Someone once put it this way, “All roads do lead to God, most to his judgment, one to his forgiveness.”

3. “If a person lives a good life God will probably let them into heaven.”

The way of work verses the way of grace is an either/or proposition. If we choose the way of work then Jesus’ standards for entrance into heaven are impossibly high (check out Matthew 5 and Jesus’ “You have heard…but I say…” standards for real righteousness.)

But the way of grace was made possible by the only human that ever kept God’s standards perfectly, Jesus himself. If this grates against your soul then you are experiencing the offense of the cross.

4. “We can’t really ‘know’ anything for sure, especially when it comes to spiritual truth.”

The postmodern epistemological principle is that we can’t be certain about anything. But the Bible’s epistemological principle is that without certainty then the essence of faith is erased. Check out Hebrews 11:1-2, “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.”

The Old Testament heroes were commended for their unshakeable certainty in the Person and promises of God that they ended up in the Hall of Fame of Hebrews 11. If we want to be included in their ranks then we need to embrace this same brand of certainty (not to be confused with know-it-all-arrogance that the Pharisees were condemned for). Anything less than full certainty in our God and his promises is faithless, enemic and, well, postmodern.

5. “I follow the red letters of the Bible more than the black ones.”

I hear this all the time. But the red letters of Jesus in the Bible that Jesus spoke are no less inspired than the black letters of the Bible that the Spirit of Jesus wrote through the pens of the 40 men who penned the Holy Scriptures over the course of 1,500 years.

Personally I think a lot of my friends who like the red letters more embrace them because they can use the purposely vague parables of Jesus to insert their own theological agendas into the conversation. But even the disciples were surprised when Jesus just flat out “said it like it was” without parabolic, confusing language. John 16:29 reminds us of this when it says, “Then Jesus’ disciples said, ‘Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.’”

Check this passage out in Matthew 13:10-15

“The disciples came to him and asked, ‘Why do you speak to the people in parables?’ He replied, ‘The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’”

In other words Jesus was purposely confusing with his parabolic language because he came, not to establish his earthly kingdom right away, but to die on the cross for the sins of humanity. That’s why I’m convinced that the gospels are best understood through the lenses of the epistles. That’s also why I’m convinced many people avoid the gospels so they can insert their own meaning/kookiness/heresy as their own punchline to the parables of Jesus.

6. “I refuse to believe that a God of love would send people to hell.”

Hell? Yes.
It is real.

Holy? Yes.
God hates sin.
That’s why he lit the flames of hell to begin with.

Loving? Yes.
God is loving.
That’s why he crushed his own Son so that we could be eternally redeemed from it’s ferocity.

7. “The gospel of Jesus is not a set of propositions.”

The word “gospel” means “good news.” This news is communicated with words in the form of propositions. This news centers around a personal relationship with the God of the universe. More to follow…

Starting this Friday afternoon our latest Dare 2 Share Uncensored podcast will be posted on www.dare2share.org

I challenge you to watch these podcasts, stay tuned to the blog and watch the sparks fly! I also challenge you to engage the conversation. Understand that I’m starting the really busy part of my conference travel schedule this weekend. So I may just pull the pin on the grenade and leave the room, trusting my theologically alligned friends to respond, tort and retort.

Stay tuned…it should be a lot of fun!

Signed, Greg Stier

29 Comments for 'Fight Club for Christians'

  1. On January 30, 2008 @ 12:51 pm Brian said:
    • Putting on my armor and preparing myself for the shrapnel (words and more importantly The Word) that will be flying. I know you’ll preach the gospel whether it’s “favorable or not.” But be “persistent,” you have a team across the the country praying for you daily.
      Can’t wait for your new series. I’ll be sure to check out the latest podcast from my hotel room on Friday.

    • Permalink to Brian's comment

  2. On January 30, 2008 @ 1:12 pm Eddie said:
    • Not that I haven’t enjoyed the previous podcasts, but now it’s getting interesting. I can’t wait.

    • Permalink to Eddie's comment

  3. On January 30, 2008 @ 1:51 pm Jason said:
    • First few lines seemed rather prophetic after today’s chapel! Great start to this new series. I look forward to what is ahead over the next 6-7 weeks.

    • Permalink to Jason's comment

  4. On January 30, 2008 @ 2:11 pm Heather said:
    • “That’s why he lit the flames of hell to begin with.”

      Why flames? It’s one thing to shun those who reject Him and not let them be with Him in eternity, but it’s another to add a lovely dose of infinite torture.

      Bah.

    • Permalink to Heather's comment

  5. On January 30, 2008 @ 2:43 pm felisha said:
    • hey wow sounds great and i am sure that if i go to the st louis survive tour this year then i will get a CHANCE TO FIND OUt more but i dont really know what to post my bro adam cedillo is part of the 48 staff so i will probally hear more of this from him well i guess that is all for now so i will post more later

    • Permalink to felisha's comment

  6. On January 31, 2008 @ 1:30 am Adam said:
    • *sigh* Greg, I’m a sucker for your posts, what can I say. I think you have a typo: That’s also why I’m convinced many people avoid the *gospels* so they can insert their own meaning/kookiness/heresy as their own punchline to the parables of Jesus.

      Do you mean epistles instead of Gospels right there?

      As far as that point goes, here’s all I’ll say: I find it ironic that you would lead all sorts of discussions about Jesus at your conferences, and have lots of materials ABOUT Jesus, but never look at Jesus’ words in particular.

      As for the proposition thing, we’ve been over it man. You’re forgetting KEY WORD: The gospel is not JUST propositional. It’s not JUST information. You quote Jesus saying “I am the way the truth and the life” in your defense of the exclusive claims of Christianity over world religions, which I’m with you on. But don’t you think that Jesus is claiming much more than simply a list of doctrine’s to conceptualize? If you claim the gospel as merely propositons, you explain to me who is being the heretic?

    • Permalink to Adam's comment

  7. On January 31, 2008 @ 6:50 am Sam said:
    • In response to Adam:

      For many years, I tried living the Christian way without worrying about having the knowledge. What happened? I got so far off track that I basically lost my faith. How did I gain my faith back? By learning what Christ told us to do. I had to learn what Christ wanted me to do before I could do it.

      So basically, I don’t see how information can’t come first. if someone doesn’t know what to to do then how can they do it? Yes, living the things are important. I agree completely, but that is stage two, not stage one.

      In the realm of witnessing, I don’t see how the Gospel can be more than propositional. You have to give people the truth, and if they accept it, then explain to them how its applied. Can you simply go around spouting off? No, because then no one will listen to you, but if you yourself are a practicing Christian to begin with, that should not be a problem.

      OK, well I am completely prepared to get roasted seeing that I think most people here will have a lot more knowledge to back up their arguments with, but I felt particularly inclined to speak…so i did :D

    • Permalink to Sam's comment

  8. On January 31, 2008 @ 7:09 am Greg Stier said:
    • Hey Adam, Yes, I think the word “just” makes a big difference. What about this…the gospel is a propositional message about a real Person who is offering a personal relationship through faith in Him that leads to transformed living? It is a good news that is meant to be preached verbally while we allow the central person of that message to live his life through us.

      Just so you know I’m a BIG fan of the gospels. I’ve been spending more time there lately than anywhere else. I don’t think the GOSPELS and the epistles are in conflict at all. I think they complement each other in powerful ways.

      But, according to Jesus own admission, he was purposely parabolic so that he could follow through on his bigger reason for coming to planet earth…to die for the sins of humanity. It’s in that parabolic bent of Jesus where I see some insert some of their own theological agendas.

      Sam, you did a great job explaining yourself!

    • Permalink to Greg Stier's comment

  9. On January 31, 2008 @ 7:59 am Eddie said:
    • Adam my man,

      There are many times Jesus speaks in a vague manner as Greg mentions and for the reasons Greg mentions as Jesus said that was why He did so. However, there are other places where Jesus was not so vague.

      When you get a chance; read the entire chapter of John 3. It’s amazing that most of the letters are in red, spoken by Jesus, while He gives Nicodemus a complete propositional message of salvation (eternal life, born again). He uses the brazen serpent example which is was a quick do this and you’re saved illustration and follows it with this in verse 15, “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

      He gets really simplified a little further in verse 18 where He says, “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Basically; Jesus is saying to believe or not to continue in unbelief.

      When you’ve finished John 3, continue in John 4 with Jesus and the woman at the well. It was completely propositional.

      And what did she do when she believed? She went and told others the same propositional gospel. The Bible makes a big deal out of her telling others. The Bible doesn’t condemn her for her propositional gospel. In fact, it tells us how she ran around telling others about the Savior and what He had just said to her. Pay close attention to verses 39-42. Many believed because of what she said while others ran to Christ and believed when He told them the same thing.

      Now, in the context and example given by the Bible, including the words in red… there is only a propositional gospel given by both Jesus AND the woman at the well.

      I hold firmly to the words in red and don’t avoid them. And those words are blatantly speaking a propositional gospel. These chapters come from the gospel of John which makes the claim “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” (John 20:30, 31).

      Imagine that… the book of John claims it was written for the purpose of telling others how they might believe who Jesus is, and receive eternal life by doing so. That’s a proposition right there. The book of John gives a propositional gospel as the reason it was written. Interesting…

    • Permalink to Eddie's comment

  10. On January 31, 2008 @ 10:17 am Adam said:
    • You guys are killing me.

      Go back and read my comments, even the blog post if you must. Did I say that there is no propositional aspect to the Gospel; ever? No, not once have I contended that. You guys keep going back to try and convince me of it! I’m just saying it is not MERELY propositional. No need to try and break it down for me, I get it!

    • Permalink to Adam's comment

  11. On January 31, 2008 @ 10:18 am Adam said:
    • Greg, your summation of the whole propositional/relational aspect of the gospel is beautiful, seriously. Yes, there it is. Here ya go:

      Right on Greg!

    • Permalink to Adam's comment

  12. On January 31, 2008 @ 12:12 pm Sam said:
    • Ok wait, what was even being argued? I thought I knew, but now I don’t.

      Adam, you say that ppl focus too much on the propositional side of the Gospel rather than what it all really means, correct? If so, isn’t that the same thing? if you are truly spreading the information of Christ, isn’t that the same thing as explaining what that means?

      lol I think I may have become lost in differing terminology.

    • Permalink to Sam's comment

  13. On January 31, 2008 @ 12:16 pm Greg Stier said:
    • Thanks Adam! I may use that in our podcast on that one coming up in a few months. Thanks for helping me work it out.

    • Permalink to Greg Stier's comment

  14. On January 31, 2008 @ 2:35 pm Eddie said:
    • Adam,

      I’m just giving you a hard time… and I’m curious. Where do you believe is the relational aspect of the gospel message in John 3 and John 4? Make sure you use the words in red. I would like to hear your take on that.

    • Permalink to Eddie's comment

  15. On January 31, 2008 @ 3:02 pm Adam said:
    • Eddie,

      Again, I’m glad to have civil discussions, I probably was a little to agitated when I pounded out my earlier response!

      But dude, I can turn around and say what about Matthew 25: 31-46 with the sheep and the goats. Show me the propositional model in that parable. Or, is Jesus just being cryptic again and we really should just use John 3 or 4?

      Again, it’s not like I’m saying it’s PURELY one or the other, because I think we can find scripture that informs both “sides” of the gospel. All I’m saying is if you go with JUST “propositional” or JUST “relational” then it’s bad form either way- which is what I’ve been trying to say for about a week now.

      In our particular discussion, what we’re REALLY talking about is the authority and interpretation of scripture, and that’s a tricky topic as we’ve seen. You can site John 3 and 4, I can site Matthew 25…who “wins”?

      Something I know I have to guard against is to have “a canon within the canon”. I picked up that phrase from Tony Jones, and Greg is alluding to it with his red letters statement. Now, I may seem arguing for some sort of “biblical affirmative action” where you site gospels and epistles in equality, but that would be silly. All I’m saying is we have to remained balanced and humble, and not just lift up 1 or 2 individual chapters and act like that’s where the “real” gospel is.

      Now, I’ve heard some heartburn over emergent language, and maybe this isn’t new, but we have to work towards a holistic view of scripture; and when I have that down I can write a companion to the Bible and get rich and pay people to blog for me because I’ve figured it all out… aka not gonna happen!

      Now don’t label me heretical, but here’s what I propose. Eddie, I invite you to read “The Secret Message of Jesus” by Brian McLaren. I promise it’s not as scandalous as it sounds. Frankly, I was a little disappointed, because it seems like the marketing of the book put a very ‘gnostic/da vinci code’ spin on it, and it really is a wonderful book. I believe McLaren has some great insights into the parables of Jesus. So, you pick that up and we can discuss over email or my blog. In return, you have me read a book of your choice and we can both be growing in loving dialogue. How’s that sound?

      What makes the difference here is that no one is name calling or getting mad and “taking their toys and going home”. Greg has been very gracious with me as a voice of somewhat dissent, but I’ve also put myself out there so I’m not just hatin all the time! I actually really look forward to checking back for more comments. Sorry mine are so long!

      Greg, again, I LOVED LOVED LOVED your summary. In fact, I might just put it on my blog!

    • Permalink to Adam's comment

  16. On January 31, 2008 @ 3:38 pm Eddie said:
    • Adam,

      Your comments cant be as long as mine. I type fast so I really throw down some length before I realze it.

      We’ll get to Matthew 25:31-46 and I dont avoid it or run from it, I embrace it; but I wanted to hear your relational take on John 3&4. Seriously.

      I love Greg’s comment also and think he did a great job with it. I too agree that both aspects are important.

    • Permalink to Eddie's comment

  17. On January 31, 2008 @ 4:38 pm Adam said:
    • What I’m saying is, why single our just John 3 and 4? I can sit here and say the same to you about Matthew 25!

    • Permalink to Adam's comment

  18. On January 31, 2008 @ 5:00 pm Sam said:
    • I’m less confused now lol not that i have anything to add

    • Permalink to Sam's comment

  19. On January 31, 2008 @ 6:48 pm jessica. said:
    • hey there greg. hehe. hey i did a report thingy on creation vs evolution and learned some interesting stuff. lliiiike. the Bible actually talks about the earth being round even before it was scientifically proven. :] yeah i got an A on the report. woohoo. go Jesus!!!

    • Permalink to jessica.'s comment

  20. On January 31, 2008 @ 9:50 pm Monica Sagehorn said:
    • Gentlemen, May I propose that if you are going to use prose such as propositional and relational on a website that is frequented by teenagers, you may wish to add definitions for these words. Just something I “propose” as someone who tries to “relate” information to teenagers (who are young and do not have a large vocabulary) on a daily basis. Thanks!

    • Permalink to Monica Sagehorn's comment

  21. On February 1, 2008 @ 8:48 am Eddie said:
    • Adam,

      I sent you an email.

      Monica,

      Good point. I apologize for any confusion in my comments.

    • Permalink to Eddie's comment

  22. On February 1, 2008 @ 3:49 pm L. Cope said:
    • I had to give my two cents concerning Monica’s comment above.

      What has happened to our educational system when we have to define words like “propositional” and “relational” for teenagers in greater depth? Don’t teenagers know how to open a dictionary?

    • Permalink to L. Cope's comment

  23. On February 4, 2008 @ 1:47 am Twenty Items of Interest (v.5) « Shane Vander Hart said:
    • […] 9.  Greg Stier lists seven sentences that should be fighting words for Christians. […]

    • Permalink to Twenty Items of Interest (v.5) « Shane Vander Hart's comment

  24. On February 4, 2008 @ 9:58 am Them’s Fighting Words!…HUH? « Losing My Religion said:
    • […] 2008 at 9:57 am (Uncategorized) Shane pointed me in the direction of this blogpost by Greg Stier - ‘fight club for Christians’. The reason this intrigues me is because we have been discussing some of these issues on this blog […]

    • Permalink to Them’s Fighting Words!…HUH? « Losing My Religion's comment

  25. On February 4, 2008 @ 10:20 am societyvs said:
    • Interesting 7 points there - I think I will respond to a few of them - since some of this has peaked my interest.

      1. I am in agreement about point 1 - I think we need to discuss doctrine and biblical values a church holds to.

      2. Jesus as the sole way to heaven - I had this debate on my blog a few times already - but if you don’t mind - explain your position (which I am guessing is about exclusivity)? However, even of he is ‘the way’ - what is the way as explained in John 14?

      3. “The way of work verses the way of grace is an either/or proposition.” (Greg). Total supposition on your part - James’ epistle, oddly enough, does not seperate the 2 - neither do the gospels. As for the Matthew 5:21-48 section - are you saying this is impossible? Why would a teacher (Jesus) give his disciples a teaching they could not adhere to?

      4. I would say there is a lot we can know from the scriptures themselves and the least of that is spiritual truth - but basic ideas on values a building paradigms for our lives - based on the teachings of Jesus. But I ask you - what is the difference between a spiritual truth and the truth?

      5. The red letters arguement has a counter-arguement - and it ain’t related to the parables at all. For example, who do you follow - Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, or John? Whom do the gospels say they are about? Why do the very books of the person you claim to follow (even the very words) take a backseat to some letters from someone we do not follow? The gospels are quite simply accounts of Jesus - the letters are accounts of the disciples - which truly holds more weight?

      6. Your defense of hell is very weak. We have a very mean God it would seem. He delights in eternal torture - even the very flesh of your human body being burned for 1000’s upon 1000’s of years? All this based on 20-100 years of living upon earth - does the judgment fit the crime first off? Secondly, if we are born with a sin nature - then we are likely to sin? Thirdly, did Jesus die for all the people of the planet or some? God’s love is conditional apparently - if Jesus is only good for some.

      7. As for the good news being a set of propositions - I have very little problem with this - then again I would need to hear the whole argument fleshed out - but as of now - propositions is just as good as asking us to do something - which in turn makes following Christ’s teachings voluntary.

    • Permalink to societyvs's comment

  26. On February 4, 2008 @ 1:05 pm Ken Smith said:
    • Hey Greg, great stuff! I am new to your site and will poke around at other stuff here. I have been writing a blog for a while which didn’t attract a lot of readers but one post might be of interest to you for your first post “Christians shouldn’t debate theology.” Here is the link;

      http://brotherken.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/thou-shalt-not-judge/

      Looking forward the series.

    • Permalink to Ken Smith's comment

  27. On February 5, 2008 @ 10:50 pm Heather said:
    • Wow Adam you are so SMART, not that I didn’t know that, but I didn’t know you used such big words…..

      Greg can I just say that I love it when you do chapel? Maybe I’m partial, but I inevitably end up getting smacked upside the head with some nugget of truth! So thanks for making my Wednesdays at work that much more enjoyable :)

      And uh Ken you just used fighting words ^^^^^^^^^ there……

    • Permalink to Heather's comment

  28. On February 16, 2008 @ 3:58 pm Gina said:
    • Wow!! Thanks Greg your dare to share speeches opened my eyes to the unseen……. I want to thank you because you showed me that God and Jesus loves everyone even those who think he doesnt……. I loved going to dare to share andw I cant wait to go again…….. You showed me the love fo Christ and the wonderful things that he could do ion my life……… I cant wait to see what His plan is for me in the near future…….. thanks again for all your help…..

      Gina

    • Permalink to Gina's comment

  29. On June 21, 2008 @ 9:21 am Caffeinated Thoughts - » Twenty Items of Interest (v.5) said:
    • […] 9.  Greg Stier lists seven sentences that should be fighting words for Christians. […]

    • Permalink to Caffeinated Thoughts - » Twenty Items of Interest (v.5)'s comment

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