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	<title>Comments on: Faith without works CAN&#8217;T save you!</title>
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	<description>Rantings of a Jesus-loving, raving lunatic</description>
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		<title>By: Caffeinated Thoughts - &#187; Twenty Items of Interest (v. 12)</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-73858</link>
		<dc:creator>Caffeinated Thoughts - &#187; Twenty Items of Interest (v. 12)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Greg Stier on the James 2 faith-works dilemma.Â  My take is that works don&#8217;t save, but saving faith will have works as fruit or the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Greg Stier on the James 2 faith-works dilemma.Â  My take is that works don&#8217;t save, but saving faith will have works as fruit or the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-68537</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 22:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-68537</guid>
		<description>I think you are misunderstanding me.  I think you have labled me as works based with the Mormans, and Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses and that is inaccurate.  I believe as do you that it is by faith in Christ Jesus alone.  But what does that mean?  To have faith in Jesus it takes a little work or action on our part to receive.  You can just sit there and do nothing and nothing has changed in your life.  Where the works come in is after salvation and that is what James is talking about.  Believe and then do nothing to maintain and grow and you lose it.  I know this is where you will disagree with me with the &quot;eternal security&quot; stuff, but it isn&#039;t biblically based.  You cannot separate faith from works, they go together.  When you stop living for Christ, He ceases to be Lord of your life, by your choosing not his.  Who&#039;s lord of your life then?  I know you are hard on sinning Christians, but then you give them a back door and tell them they are ok and secure.  2 Corinthians 7:1 &quot;Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.&quot;  1 John 3:9-10 &quot;No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God&#039;s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.  This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not &quot;do&quot; what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.  2 Peter 3:17 &quot;Therefore dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.&quot;  You may want to read 2 Peter chapter 3, where we are called to live holy and godly lives and to make every effort (work) to be found spotless, blameless, and at peace with him.  This sounds like working to me.  Not before salvation--we&#039;re in agreement that you cannot earn your initial salvation, but the Bible clearly teaches that we must &quot;hold fast&quot; and &quot;hold firm&quot; to our faith &quot;until the end&quot;.  We have become so concerned with decisions that we forget that it is a relationship and we all know that it takes hard work to keep a relationship together.  Try telling your wife that you have faith in your marriage, and don&#039;t work on that relationship.  It may not be the best illustration but if you want to keep it together, you better be getting some flowers and chocolate and let her know you love her with your actions and deeds.  I love you at the altar doesn&#039;t for eternity.  I honestly don&#039;t mean to argue with you personally, I just can&#039;t stand seeing our young people get the message &quot;All I have to do is believe and I&#039;m good for eternity no matter what my words and deeds are.  I live with a sinful nature and I&#039;m going to sin everyday in word, thought, or deed, so why worry about my sins.  I just ask for forgiveness before bedtime and I&#039;m good.&quot;  You may not come right out and say it that bluntly and to that extreeme, but that&#039;s what they are hearing.  Eternal Security is nothing more than modern day Gnosticism.  Come on Greg, let&#039;s stop giving &quot;sinning Christians&quot; an easy out by telling them they still are saved and are still are going to heaven.  They just have broken fellowship or don&#039;t receive as many rewards.  The Bible just doesn&#039;t support that.  We died to sin, we cannot continue in it! (Romans 6:1-2)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are misunderstanding me.  I think you have labled me as works based with the Mormans, and Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses and that is inaccurate.  I believe as do you that it is by faith in Christ Jesus alone.  But what does that mean?  To have faith in Jesus it takes a little work or action on our part to receive.  You can just sit there and do nothing and nothing has changed in your life.  Where the works come in is after salvation and that is what James is talking about.  Believe and then do nothing to maintain and grow and you lose it.  I know this is where you will disagree with me with the &#8220;eternal security&#8221; stuff, but it isn&#8217;t biblically based.  You cannot separate faith from works, they go together.  When you stop living for Christ, He ceases to be Lord of your life, by your choosing not his.  Who&#8217;s lord of your life then?  I know you are hard on sinning Christians, but then you give them a back door and tell them they are ok and secure.  2 Corinthians 7:1 &#8220;Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.&#8221;  1 John 3:9-10 &#8220;No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God&#8217;s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.  This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not &#8220;do&#8221; what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.  2 Peter 3:17 &#8220;Therefore dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.&#8221;  You may want to read 2 Peter chapter 3, where we are called to live holy and godly lives and to make every effort (work) to be found spotless, blameless, and at peace with him.  This sounds like working to me.  Not before salvation&#8211;we&#8217;re in agreement that you cannot earn your initial salvation, but the Bible clearly teaches that we must &#8220;hold fast&#8221; and &#8220;hold firm&#8221; to our faith &#8220;until the end&#8221;.  We have become so concerned with decisions that we forget that it is a relationship and we all know that it takes hard work to keep a relationship together.  Try telling your wife that you have faith in your marriage, and don&#8217;t work on that relationship.  It may not be the best illustration but if you want to keep it together, you better be getting some flowers and chocolate and let her know you love her with your actions and deeds.  I love you at the altar doesn&#8217;t for eternity.  I honestly don&#8217;t mean to argue with you personally, I just can&#8217;t stand seeing our young people get the message &#8220;All I have to do is believe and I&#8217;m good for eternity no matter what my words and deeds are.  I live with a sinful nature and I&#8217;m going to sin everyday in word, thought, or deed, so why worry about my sins.  I just ask for forgiveness before bedtime and I&#8217;m good.&#8221;  You may not come right out and say it that bluntly and to that extreeme, but that&#8217;s what they are hearing.  Eternal Security is nothing more than modern day Gnosticism.  Come on Greg, let&#8217;s stop giving &#8220;sinning Christians&#8221; an easy out by telling them they still are saved and are still are going to heaven.  They just have broken fellowship or don&#8217;t receive as many rewards.  The Bible just doesn&#8217;t support that.  We died to sin, we cannot continue in it! (Romans 6:1-2)</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-66180</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 18:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-66180</guid>
		<description>The great thing Scott is that Mormons, Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses and other works based religions agree with you on this point as well. Unfortunately the New Testament does not. 98x&#039;s the book of John says &quot;believe&quot; is the requirement for salvation (the only book written to unbelievers by the way) and the book of Galatians blatantly attacks those who dare to add one work to the free gift of God&#039;s grace. Here&#039;s what the Apostle Paul writes to all those who dare to add works as a requirement for salvation, &quot;You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?&quot; Of course once we are saved from the penalty of sin the good deeds should pour forth as a supernatural result of his Spirit working in us and on us. But to make this a prerequisite for salvation insults the work of Christ on the cross. You&#039;ll never hear me justifying a &quot;sinning religion&quot;. I am hard on sinning Christians. But you don&#039;t pervert the gospel of grace to get the outcome that you feel is right. We are saved by either grace or works. It can&#039;t be both &quot;if it were, grace would no longer be grace&quot; (Romans 11:6)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The great thing Scott is that Mormons, Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses and other works based religions agree with you on this point as well. Unfortunately the New Testament does not. 98x&#8217;s the book of John says &#8220;believe&#8221; is the requirement for salvation (the only book written to unbelievers by the way) and the book of Galatians blatantly attacks those who dare to add one work to the free gift of God&#8217;s grace. Here&#8217;s what the Apostle Paul writes to all those who dare to add works as a requirement for salvation, &#8220;You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?&#8221; Of course once we are saved from the penalty of sin the good deeds should pour forth as a supernatural result of his Spirit working in us and on us. But to make this a prerequisite for salvation insults the work of Christ on the cross. You&#8217;ll never hear me justifying a &#8220;sinning religion&#8221;. I am hard on sinning Christians. But you don&#8217;t pervert the gospel of grace to get the outcome that you feel is right. We are saved by either grace or works. It can&#8217;t be both &#8220;if it were, grace would no longer be grace&#8221; (Romans 11:6)</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-66170</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 17:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-66170</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s amazing how much opinion enters some of your comments.  I really believe it&#039;s just an attempt to justify a &quot;sinning religion&quot;.  It&#039;s all grace and no works.  Where in the Bible does it ever say that it&#039;s ok to continue sinning after salvation?  Where does it say that we have to sin or will sin every day or even often?  Some of you guys write stuff like &quot;we all sin&quot;.  Well I guess we aren&#039;t reading the same Bible and don&#039;t serve the same Savior.  It is clear throughout the Bible that God intended for us to live holy and righteous and blameless lives &quot;in this present day&quot; (Titus 2).  This junk about 2 natures waring within us doesn&#039;t have to be.  Paul talks about it many times.  That sinful nature (different from the actual sins committed), has to be crucified, destroyed, done away with and not just suppressed.  If not those sinful acts, deeds, attitudes, will continually raise their ugly head.  If the blood Jesus shed on the cross only washed away our past sins, but wasn&#039;t powerful enough to cleanse us and purify us from the sinful nature, then He wasn&#039;t very powerful and not much of a Savior!  The reason the church isn&#039;t any more effective than what it is in our society, is because the church and Christians have fallen short of all that God has for it.  We preach salvation but not sanctification.  Stop making excuses for sin in the life of the Christian and twisting the scriptures to make us all feel good about the little sins we hold on to.  It does matter what we do after salvation.  I agree works will not save us, but they will keep us saved!  We would all agree that we must be sanctified and made holy before we enter heaven.  We just don&#039;t agree when that takes place.  Some think it happens with 1 work of grace, some think it happens with a 2nd work of grace, and some think it happens when we die.  Why can&#039;t we accept that God is big enough and powerful enough to purify us &quot;in this present day&quot;--right now.  I believe the false doctrines and fals prophets are those who sell half the gospel--Salvation without Sanctification (the 2nd work of the Holy Spirit) and it&#039;s not some fanatical tongue-speaking, roll on the floor experience.  When we are filled with the Spirit at Sanctification, the evidence is &quot;the fruit of the spirit&quot; in Galatians and I believe that is exactly what James is referring to as well.  Look at them again: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Controll.  Nothing in there about &quot;sinning Christians&quot;--those two words are a contradiction anyway.  The mature, Spirit-Filled Christian will display those fruits and the Self-Controll would include the sin stuff as well.  We are sending the wrong message when we tell our young people and new believers that it&#039;s ok to sin and still be a Christian and that they are &quot;eternally secure&quot;.  The Bible just doesn&#039;t say that--you&#039;re stretching it to even come close.  We must be a holy people that are living for Jesus moment by moment and not in a backslidden state, if we ever hope to enter a holy place called heaven and see a holy God who gave his only Son so we could have eternal life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s amazing how much opinion enters some of your comments.  I really believe it&#8217;s just an attempt to justify a &#8220;sinning religion&#8221;.  It&#8217;s all grace and no works.  Where in the Bible does it ever say that it&#8217;s ok to continue sinning after salvation?  Where does it say that we have to sin or will sin every day or even often?  Some of you guys write stuff like &#8220;we all sin&#8221;.  Well I guess we aren&#8217;t reading the same Bible and don&#8217;t serve the same Savior.  It is clear throughout the Bible that God intended for us to live holy and righteous and blameless lives &#8220;in this present day&#8221; (Titus 2).  This junk about 2 natures waring within us doesn&#8217;t have to be.  Paul talks about it many times.  That sinful nature (different from the actual sins committed), has to be crucified, destroyed, done away with and not just suppressed.  If not those sinful acts, deeds, attitudes, will continually raise their ugly head.  If the blood Jesus shed on the cross only washed away our past sins, but wasn&#8217;t powerful enough to cleanse us and purify us from the sinful nature, then He wasn&#8217;t very powerful and not much of a Savior!  The reason the church isn&#8217;t any more effective than what it is in our society, is because the church and Christians have fallen short of all that God has for it.  We preach salvation but not sanctification.  Stop making excuses for sin in the life of the Christian and twisting the scriptures to make us all feel good about the little sins we hold on to.  It does matter what we do after salvation.  I agree works will not save us, but they will keep us saved!  We would all agree that we must be sanctified and made holy before we enter heaven.  We just don&#8217;t agree when that takes place.  Some think it happens with 1 work of grace, some think it happens with a 2nd work of grace, and some think it happens when we die.  Why can&#8217;t we accept that God is big enough and powerful enough to purify us &#8220;in this present day&#8221;&#8211;right now.  I believe the false doctrines and fals prophets are those who sell half the gospel&#8211;Salvation without Sanctification (the 2nd work of the Holy Spirit) and it&#8217;s not some fanatical tongue-speaking, roll on the floor experience.  When we are filled with the Spirit at Sanctification, the evidence is &#8220;the fruit of the spirit&#8221; in Galatians and I believe that is exactly what James is referring to as well.  Look at them again: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Controll.  Nothing in there about &#8220;sinning Christians&#8221;&#8211;those two words are a contradiction anyway.  The mature, Spirit-Filled Christian will display those fruits and the Self-Controll would include the sin stuff as well.  We are sending the wrong message when we tell our young people and new believers that it&#8217;s ok to sin and still be a Christian and that they are &#8220;eternally secure&#8221;.  The Bible just doesn&#8217;t say that&#8211;you&#8217;re stretching it to even come close.  We must be a holy people that are living for Jesus moment by moment and not in a backslidden state, if we ever hope to enter a holy place called heaven and see a holy God who gave his only Son so we could have eternal life.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-61707</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-61707</guid>
		<description>Chris, nice comments back (14), &quot;The book of James is written to Jewish â€œbelieversâ€ (James 1:1)&quot;. I was using 2 Peter 3:9 recently with a Calvinists about how God wants all people saved.  He (the Calvinist) was quick to point out that this verse is written to believers and that it does not apply to all people just believers.  It seems to be a common excuse when you don&#039;t want scripture applied to unbelieving to say &quot;well you need to understand this part was written to believes&quot;.  I am not sure I agree with the argument though.
I do believe God wants all men (mankind) to be save and he gives us the choice to accept the gift of life with him or not.  How we accept that gift is what we spend so much time arguing about and splitting churches over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, nice comments back (14), &#8220;The book of James is written to Jewish â€œbelieversâ€ (James 1:1)&#8221;. I was using 2 Peter 3:9 recently with a Calvinists about how God wants all people saved.  He (the Calvinist) was quick to point out that this verse is written to believers and that it does not apply to all people just believers.  It seems to be a common excuse when you don&#8217;t want scripture applied to unbelieving to say &#8220;well you need to understand this part was written to believes&#8221;.  I am not sure I agree with the argument though.<br />
I do believe God wants all men (mankind) to be save and he gives us the choice to accept the gift of life with him or not.  How we accept that gift is what we spend so much time arguing about and splitting churches over.</p>
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		<title>By: Eddie</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-61663</link>
		<dc:creator>Eddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-61663</guid>
		<description>I have to be honest. I think this passage is rather simple and gets way to much attention for what itâ€™s not about.

James is instructing the believers in spiritual maturity and to understand chapter 2, it&#039;s best to go back to chapter 1. Itâ€™s not about eternal life. Itâ€™s not about proving they were saved. Thatâ€™s not even the point. Heâ€™s guiding believers to maturity in their Christian lives.

My simple summary for James is this and itâ€™s written to believers.

The point of the book: Spiritual Maturity

â€œConsider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anythingâ€ (James 1:2-4).

Trials build perseverance. Perseverance is necessary to grow stronger and spiritually mature in Christ. (Chris gave an excellent example of the silversmith which explains this much deeper).

Now specifically James 2:

Having faith in Christ and believing in God does not put food in the mouth of the hungry or clothes on the naked. Favoritism has no place among believers. Love our neighbor as ourselves. As a child of God, we will reap what we sow and God will show us mercy in our consequences on the level we show mercy to others. Mercy trumps judgment so itâ€™s worth the trouble. So straighten up.
_______________________________
And to Ryan,

You said,

â€œNow do not mistake me, I do not believe that he is saying the works themselves have any salvific power. But I believe that he is simply saying that any genuine faith (and only God and the individual can know if their faith is genuine because God judges the heart) will motivate the believer to works out of gratitude for the price that has been paid.â€

Are you saying that works are automatically generated from having faith in Christ? If so, then why write the book in the first place? We are not saved by our good works, and once we are saved weâ€™d be motivated automatically to do good works. That just eliminated the need for most of the NT including half the gospels. This entire passage would have been pointless.

Following that logic, if James is talking to believers, theyâ€™d already be doing the works so whatâ€™s the point. If he was talking to the lost, works isnâ€™t the right topic but rather faith because then the works would automatically follow. He would not be pleading for them to do the works but rather to have faith. Weâ€™ve just eliminated both options. I just canâ€™t picture James writing a passage to nobody.

Instead, we are motivated, passionately pursued, prodded, and pleaded with both by Paul AND James to walk in obedience to God as believers. That means there IS a choice for those who have eternal life. Either we are obedient to God or we choose NOT to be obedient to God. We are still battling our old nature. We choose which one to follow, the spirit or the flesh. Paul admittedly battled it and wrote about it.

Iâ€™m just not sure what you meant by the comment â€œany genuine faith will motivate the believer to works out of gratitude for the price that has been paid.â€ I know it SHOULD motivate us, but itâ€™s not automatic.

And why would James write an inside joke to Paul in a letter to an entirely different group of people? Wouldnâ€™t he instead write the joke to Paul in a letter to maybe Paul?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to be honest. I think this passage is rather simple and gets way to much attention for what itâ€™s not about.</p>
<p>James is instructing the believers in spiritual maturity and to understand chapter 2, it&#8217;s best to go back to chapter 1. Itâ€™s not about eternal life. Itâ€™s not about proving they were saved. Thatâ€™s not even the point. Heâ€™s guiding believers to maturity in their Christian lives.</p>
<p>My simple summary for James is this and itâ€™s written to believers.</p>
<p>The point of the book: Spiritual Maturity</p>
<p>â€œConsider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anythingâ€ (James 1:2-4).</p>
<p>Trials build perseverance. Perseverance is necessary to grow stronger and spiritually mature in Christ. (Chris gave an excellent example of the silversmith which explains this much deeper).</p>
<p>Now specifically James 2:</p>
<p>Having faith in Christ and believing in God does not put food in the mouth of the hungry or clothes on the naked. Favoritism has no place among believers. Love our neighbor as ourselves. As a child of God, we will reap what we sow and God will show us mercy in our consequences on the level we show mercy to others. Mercy trumps judgment so itâ€™s worth the trouble. So straighten up.<br />
_______________________________<br />
And to Ryan,</p>
<p>You said,</p>
<p>â€œNow do not mistake me, I do not believe that he is saying the works themselves have any salvific power. But I believe that he is simply saying that any genuine faith (and only God and the individual can know if their faith is genuine because God judges the heart) will motivate the believer to works out of gratitude for the price that has been paid.â€</p>
<p>Are you saying that works are automatically generated from having faith in Christ? If so, then why write the book in the first place? We are not saved by our good works, and once we are saved weâ€™d be motivated automatically to do good works. That just eliminated the need for most of the NT including half the gospels. This entire passage would have been pointless.</p>
<p>Following that logic, if James is talking to believers, theyâ€™d already be doing the works so whatâ€™s the point. If he was talking to the lost, works isnâ€™t the right topic but rather faith because then the works would automatically follow. He would not be pleading for them to do the works but rather to have faith. Weâ€™ve just eliminated both options. I just canâ€™t picture James writing a passage to nobody.</p>
<p>Instead, we are motivated, passionately pursued, prodded, and pleaded with both by Paul AND James to walk in obedience to God as believers. That means there IS a choice for those who have eternal life. Either we are obedient to God or we choose NOT to be obedient to God. We are still battling our old nature. We choose which one to follow, the spirit or the flesh. Paul admittedly battled it and wrote about it.</p>
<p>Iâ€™m just not sure what you meant by the comment â€œany genuine faith will motivate the believer to works out of gratitude for the price that has been paid.â€ I know it SHOULD motivate us, but itâ€™s not automatic.</p>
<p>And why would James write an inside joke to Paul in a letter to an entirely different group of people? Wouldnâ€™t he instead write the joke to Paul in a letter to maybe Paul?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-61557</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-61557</guid>
		<description>I watched the podcast and the message was excellent and beneficial, but I&#039;m afraid that I don&#039;t completely agree.  You see I believe that James is talking about salvation in much the same manner that Jesus is talking about salvation in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I believe that James is being a little sarcastic in his statement and implying that you have no faith if you have no works.  Now do not mistake me, I do not believe that he is saying the the works themselves have any salvific power.  But I believe that he is simply saying that any genuine faith (and only God and the individual can know if their faith is genuine because God judges the heart) will motivate the believer to works out of gratitude for the price that has been paid.  I also believe that James and Paul are not in the least contradictory and would cite Ephesians 2:8-10.  In fact, speaking in a tongue in cheek manner was a habit of Pauls that is most noticable in his letters to the Corithians, and I think that James is in fact giving Paul a wink and a nod with his wording in James 2.  I believe the real point of this passage from James is that we should differentiate from saying we have faith and actually having faith.  Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard seed could move a mountain, and I will take my stand that faith of any size will move us to good works.

Your brother in Christ and a great fan,
Ryan Phillis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I watched the podcast and the message was excellent and beneficial, but I&#8217;m afraid that I don&#8217;t completely agree.  You see I believe that James is talking about salvation in much the same manner that Jesus is talking about salvation in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I believe that James is being a little sarcastic in his statement and implying that you have no faith if you have no works.  Now do not mistake me, I do not believe that he is saying the the works themselves have any salvific power.  But I believe that he is simply saying that any genuine faith (and only God and the individual can know if their faith is genuine because God judges the heart) will motivate the believer to works out of gratitude for the price that has been paid.  I also believe that James and Paul are not in the least contradictory and would cite Ephesians 2:8-10.  In fact, speaking in a tongue in cheek manner was a habit of Pauls that is most noticable in his letters to the Corithians, and I think that James is in fact giving Paul a wink and a nod with his wording in James 2.  I believe the real point of this passage from James is that we should differentiate from saying we have faith and actually having faith.  Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard seed could move a mountain, and I will take my stand that faith of any size will move us to good works.</p>
<p>Your brother in Christ and a great fan,<br />
Ryan Phillis</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Phillips</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-61524</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-61524</guid>
		<description>My previous comments were to Biblically refute the idea that we are saved by works, and to show you how the Jewish ear would have heard the terms James uses in setting the stage for his in his epistle. Remember James&#039; audience is Jewish believers. Maturity will line up with &quot;every&quot; section of the epistle.

Second, saying we all know people who claim to be Christians who really aren&#039;t isn&#039;t a judgement. It is a gathering of facts based on conversations with individuals who don&#039;t believe faith is enough to save us. They call themselves Christians, but add works to faith. If you add anything to it you are, in some way, trusting in yourself to get to heaven. Jesus said on the cross &quot;it is finished.&quot; There is nothing for us to add.

Many comments I have read, as well as, the ones from my own youth group are: I don&#039;t know any/many unsaved people. My challenge to you in sharing the gospel with &quot;every one&quot; you know is this: include those you would consider to be Christians into &quot;every one&quot; you know. Engage them in spiritual conversations, and I think you will find,if you ask the right questions, some will be trusting in their works. My 48 hour challenge was one such person, when I ask if he knew for sure if he was going to heaven, he said, &quot;Yes, I believe in &quot;God,&quot; and I am a good person.&quot; I then walked him through the G.O.S.P.E.L. and he accepted Christ. I knew that he claimed to be a Christian, and through conversation realized he didn&#039;t know the truth. I didn&#039;t judge him, rather, I shared the &quot;truth&quot; with him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My previous comments were to Biblically refute the idea that we are saved by works, and to show you how the Jewish ear would have heard the terms James uses in setting the stage for his in his epistle. Remember James&#8217; audience is Jewish believers. Maturity will line up with &#8220;every&#8221; section of the epistle.</p>
<p>Second, saying we all know people who claim to be Christians who really aren&#8217;t isn&#8217;t a judgement. It is a gathering of facts based on conversations with individuals who don&#8217;t believe faith is enough to save us. They call themselves Christians, but add works to faith. If you add anything to it you are, in some way, trusting in yourself to get to heaven. Jesus said on the cross &#8220;it is finished.&#8221; There is nothing for us to add.</p>
<p>Many comments I have read, as well as, the ones from my own youth group are: I don&#8217;t know any/many unsaved people. My challenge to you in sharing the gospel with &#8220;every one&#8221; you know is this: include those you would consider to be Christians into &#8220;every one&#8221; you know. Engage them in spiritual conversations, and I think you will find,if you ask the right questions, some will be trusting in their works. My 48 hour challenge was one such person, when I ask if he knew for sure if he was going to heaven, he said, &#8220;Yes, I believe in &#8220;God,&#8221; and I am a good person.&#8221; I then walked him through the G.O.S.P.E.L. and he accepted Christ. I knew that he claimed to be a Christian, and through conversation realized he didn&#8217;t know the truth. I didn&#8217;t judge him, rather, I shared the &#8220;truth&#8221; with him.</p>
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		<title>By: Twenty Items of Interest (v. 12) &#171; Caffeinated Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-61338</link>
		<dc:creator>Twenty Items of Interest (v. 12) &#171; Caffeinated Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-61338</guid>
		<description>[...] Greg Stier on the James 2 faith-works dilemma.&#160; My take is that works don&#8217;t save, but saving faith will have works as fruit or the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Greg Stier on the James 2 faith-works dilemma.&nbsp; My take is that works don&#8217;t save, but saving faith will have works as fruit or the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eddie</title>
		<link>http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you/comment-page-1/#comment-61305</link>
		<dc:creator>Eddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregstier.org/rants/faith-without-works-cant-save-you#comment-61305</guid>
		<description>David,

In response to your #18 commentâ€¦

I&#039;m not sticking up for Chris; I believe he can do that on his own. I just wanted to add to your comments. As you say, we do not know their hearts. We cannot know if someone who claims to have trusted Christ actually has done so based on their works and you do a good job of backing that up with scripture. 

You even use the Matthew 7 passage that leads to Jesus saying â€˜I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!â€™ to those who add works to their faith for eternal life (â€œdidnâ€™t we prophecy? didnâ€™t we drive out demons? didnâ€™t we perform miracles?â€). Excellent job by the way. You nailed fact that works are in no way responsible for our eternal life when you asked â€œhow do you know someone who you see just commit a sin that that person has been fighting and praying about for some time? Perhaps, that sin is their â€œthornâ€ that Paul talks about.â€ And again when you added, â€œAll of us were sinners and all of us still sin. No one in this flesh is perfect enough to meet God.â€ No matter how hard we try before or after we trust Christ, we will not be perfect. That renders our efforts pointless for anything other than service and proof of nothing concerning eternal life.

No amount of good works can prove a person believes, just like no amount of bad works can prove a person does NOT believe. Our works have nothing to do with receiving eternal life. This solidifies that Greg and Christ were accurate and James was NOT talking about eternal life. It is the people who tie their works into their eternal salvation that are in error.

And yes, we are all judgmental animals like you say and we are such because we are sinners. As sinners, our works will never be good enough to help our salvation in any way. As mentioned in Hebrews 6:1, we must reject also our good works, bad works and any other effort and cling only to the finished work of Christ for our eternal life. Our works are not proof for God that we believe. He already knows. They are not proof for us that someone believes, as we donâ€™t know their heart. But they do help those who may doubt our claims.

And there cannot first be an obedient child, unless there is first a child. Obedience to God doesn&#039;t make us His children. Believing only in Jesus Christ alone does that. But once we are His children, we are expected to be obedient and act like one. Of course, we are sinners and we don&#039;t always do that and you made a strong case supporting that fact. It&#039;s like raising any child, it&#039;s not pretty and children have to learn. It&#039;s not automatic. We must mature as God&#039;s children and James 2 covers it well.

As far as what Chris meant when he said â€œYou and I both know plenty of people who claim to be Christians, but arenâ€™t.â€ I donâ€™t know who Chris was talking about but I agree with him in one way.

It&#039;s not about judging someone based on their works as Jesus warned against. Keeping with the Matthew 7 theme here, we are to judge false prophets based on what they teach and the fruit they bear. The judgment is based on what they are having faith in. If they add works to grace, itâ€™s false. If itâ€™s by grace, through faith alone in Christ aloneâ€¦ true.

I know many who claim to have faith in Jesus Christ alone but instead rely on their good works to get them to heaven. They are the examples Jesus gives in Matthew 7:22. Instead of clinging to their faith in Him alone for their eternal life/salvation, they are clinging to their works as proof. Jesus says here that they are not saved. This is not a judgment based on their works like He warns against in the opening verses of the chapter but rather based on the actual focus of their faith. And if they are preaching that false faith, they are false prophets and their fruit will not be good fruit but corrupted.

The issue is that they claim to be Christians but focus on their works as the proof. Faith in Jesus Christ and HIS finished work on the cross is what makes a Christian, not OUR works. What someone is trusting in for their eternal life can be judged and should be judged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>In response to your #18 commentâ€¦</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sticking up for Chris; I believe he can do that on his own. I just wanted to add to your comments. As you say, we do not know their hearts. We cannot know if someone who claims to have trusted Christ actually has done so based on their works and you do a good job of backing that up with scripture. </p>
<p>You even use the Matthew 7 passage that leads to Jesus saying â€˜I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!â€™ to those who add works to their faith for eternal life (â€œdidnâ€™t we prophecy? didnâ€™t we drive out demons? didnâ€™t we perform miracles?â€). Excellent job by the way. You nailed fact that works are in no way responsible for our eternal life when you asked â€œhow do you know someone who you see just commit a sin that that person has been fighting and praying about for some time? Perhaps, that sin is their â€œthornâ€ that Paul talks about.â€ And again when you added, â€œAll of us were sinners and all of us still sin. No one in this flesh is perfect enough to meet God.â€ No matter how hard we try before or after we trust Christ, we will not be perfect. That renders our efforts pointless for anything other than service and proof of nothing concerning eternal life.</p>
<p>No amount of good works can prove a person believes, just like no amount of bad works can prove a person does NOT believe. Our works have nothing to do with receiving eternal life. This solidifies that Greg and Christ were accurate and James was NOT talking about eternal life. It is the people who tie their works into their eternal salvation that are in error.</p>
<p>And yes, we are all judgmental animals like you say and we are such because we are sinners. As sinners, our works will never be good enough to help our salvation in any way. As mentioned in Hebrews 6:1, we must reject also our good works, bad works and any other effort and cling only to the finished work of Christ for our eternal life. Our works are not proof for God that we believe. He already knows. They are not proof for us that someone believes, as we donâ€™t know their heart. But they do help those who may doubt our claims.</p>
<p>And there cannot first be an obedient child, unless there is first a child. Obedience to God doesn&#8217;t make us His children. Believing only in Jesus Christ alone does that. But once we are His children, we are expected to be obedient and act like one. Of course, we are sinners and we don&#8217;t always do that and you made a strong case supporting that fact. It&#8217;s like raising any child, it&#8217;s not pretty and children have to learn. It&#8217;s not automatic. We must mature as God&#8217;s children and James 2 covers it well.</p>
<p>As far as what Chris meant when he said â€œYou and I both know plenty of people who claim to be Christians, but arenâ€™t.â€ I donâ€™t know who Chris was talking about but I agree with him in one way.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not about judging someone based on their works as Jesus warned against. Keeping with the Matthew 7 theme here, we are to judge false prophets based on what they teach and the fruit they bear. The judgment is based on what they are having faith in. If they add works to grace, itâ€™s false. If itâ€™s by grace, through faith alone in Christ aloneâ€¦ true.</p>
<p>I know many who claim to have faith in Jesus Christ alone but instead rely on their good works to get them to heaven. They are the examples Jesus gives in Matthew 7:22. Instead of clinging to their faith in Him alone for their eternal life/salvation, they are clinging to their works as proof. Jesus says here that they are not saved. This is not a judgment based on their works like He warns against in the opening verses of the chapter but rather based on the actual focus of their faith. And if they are preaching that false faith, they are false prophets and their fruit will not be good fruit but corrupted.</p>
<p>The issue is that they claim to be Christians but focus on their works as the proof. Faith in Jesus Christ and HIS finished work on the cross is what makes a Christian, not OUR works. What someone is trusting in for their eternal life can be judged and should be judged.</p>
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