Comments on: A Re-Reformation of the Protestant Church http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/ Rantings of a Jesus-loving, raving lunatic Tue, 07 Sep 2010 14:17:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Scott http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-22591 Scott Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:14:59 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-22591 Greg, I don't think we are far apart and I think we are basically saying the same thing.  My concern is for those that would take the faith alone and run with it to the point that they "do nothing" and expect to grow in their relationship with Christ and make it to heaven.  I agree with you in the fact that we can do nothing to earn or merit the grace given, by God, through Christ to us for salvation.  It's free.  And I agree that works and righteous deeds must follow.  I'm convinced that the Bible takes it a bit farther (and I think you would too.) We must grow in grace and come to the place of entire sanctification.  That too is by faith and a gift of God, paid for by the blood of Christ on the cross.  When we totally consecrate our lives (forsake all for the gospel and his kingdom) and allow him to cleanse our lives of the sinful nature that causes us to continually sin (sanctification) then we can live a victorious life free from willful sin.  Hannah Whithall Smith one of the great christian classic writers said: "If God hates sin in the sinner's life, how much more does He hate sin in the Christian's life?"  Romans 6:1-2 basically Paul says that we (Christians cannot continue to sin.  We supposedly died to sin and that lifestyle.  We can't live in it any longer and continue to claim the name of Christ.  In other words we have to live like a Christian and that requires work, practice.  I say all this because I'm afraid we are trying to judge whether someone has made a sincere commitment at the point of salvation or not.  If they fall away we say they didn't really mean it.  Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  Only God really knows.  Maybe no one challenged them to not stop at faith.  Maybe no one challenged them to move forward to a higher plane of living after salvation.  Maybe no one told them they could live a victorious life over sin and satan.  And they just gave up and went back to their old life of sin.  I guess I just want teenagers and adults for that matter to not settle for second best with their spiritual lives.  I want them to exerience the joy of knowing all is forgiven, cleansed, purified, and set apart for God's service in their lives.  We demand excellence in sports, we demand excellence in school work, band, and other activities in life.  And we tell teens to practice everyday.  Yet we (the church) don't ask much of them in their spiritual walk.  2 Corinthians 7:1 "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us <strong>purify</strong> ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, <strong>perfecting holiness</strong> out of reverence for God.   I am not comfortable with that word "perfecting" personally, because I know my weaknesses and limitations.  I'm sure as you know the original language of the writer indicates an understanding of "practicing holiness" rather than a literal perfection in performance without any mistakes.  So if we begin to practice living holy lives everyday <strong>with the help and power of the Holy Spirit living in us,</strong> (not of our own power), then we can be all that He purposed for us to be.  I sincerely hope I'm not confusing the point.  Psalm 24:3-4 tells us who will go to heaven--those with clean hands and pure hearts.  Faith alone in Christ alone followed by holy living--when the holy living ceases, we are in essence saying we don't have faith or trust in Christ.  That is dangerous ground to be on and a dissappointed Daddy will discipline and punish.  And don't limit it to earthly punishment.  The Holy God who lives in a Holy Heaven isn't going to allow a sinful man to enter.  "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."  Grace & Peace, Pastor Scott Greg, I don’t think we are far apart and I think we are basically saying the same thing.  My concern is for those that would take the faith alone and run with it to the point that they "do nothing" and expect to grow in their relationship with Christ and make it to heaven.  I agree with you in the fact that we can do nothing to earn or merit the grace given, by God, through Christ to us for salvation.  It’s free.  And I agree that works and righteous deeds must follow.  I’m convinced that the Bible takes it a bit farther (and I think you would too.) We must grow in grace and come to the place of entire sanctification.  That too is by faith and a gift of God, paid for by the blood of Christ on the cross.  When we totally consecrate our lives (forsake all for the gospel and his kingdom) and allow him to cleanse our lives of the sinful nature that causes us to continually sin (sanctification) then we can live a victorious life free from willful sin.  Hannah Whithall Smith one of the great christian classic writers said: "If God hates sin in the sinner’s life, how much more does He hate sin in the Christian’s life?"  Romans 6:1-2 basically Paul says that we (Christians cannot continue to sin.  We supposedly died to sin and that lifestyle.  We can’t live in it any longer and continue to claim the name of Christ.  In other words we have to live like a Christian and that requires work, practice.  I say all this because I’m afraid we are trying to judge whether someone has made a sincere commitment at the point of salvation or not.  If they fall away we say they didn’t really mean it.  Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t.  Only God really knows.  Maybe no one challenged them to not stop at faith.  Maybe no one challenged them to move forward to a higher plane of living after salvation.  Maybe no one told them they could live a victorious life over sin and satan.  And they just gave up and went back to their old life of sin.  I guess I just want teenagers and adults for that matter to not settle for second best with their spiritual lives.  I want them to exerience the joy of knowing all is forgiven, cleansed, purified, and set apart for God’s service in their lives.  We demand excellence in sports, we demand excellence in school work, band, and other activities in life.  And we tell teens to practice everyday.  Yet we (the church) don’t ask much of them in their spiritual walk.  2 Corinthians 7:1 "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.   I am not comfortable with that word "perfecting" personally, because I know my weaknesses and limitations.  I’m sure as you know the original language of the writer indicates an understanding of "practicing holiness" rather than a literal perfection in performance without any mistakes.  So if we begin to practice living holy lives everyday with the help and power of the Holy Spirit living in us, (not of our own power), then we can be all that He purposed for us to be.  I sincerely hope I’m not confusing the point.  Psalm 24:3-4 tells us who will go to heaven–those with clean hands and pure hearts.  Faith alone in Christ alone followed by holy living–when the holy living ceases, we are in essence saying we don’t have faith or trust in Christ.  That is dangerous ground to be on and a dissappointed Daddy will discipline and punish.  And don’t limit it to earthly punishment.  The Holy God who lives in a Holy Heaven isn’t going to allow a sinful man to enter.  "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."  Grace & Peace, Pastor Scott

]]> By: Denny http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-21819 Denny Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:31:16 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-21819 Greg: Grace to you.  I, too believe in what you have written.  My stepfather came over one day and told me about some sin in his life.  He told me that he was at the end of his rope--there was no hope for him.  I told him that there was hope.  It took him over an hour to drive to my house--that is God's grace by giving him an opportunity to drive that way without getting killed in a car accident.  When he arrived at the house, God showed him grace by allowing him to sit on my couch and to tell me what he had done without getting shot down by me or anyone else.  Instead, what he saw for the first time in his life was the Lord Jesus Christ and the grace that He has to offer to those who believe (<em><strong>faith alone in Christ alone</strong></em>).  I told him about this grace, I told him about this forgiveness, I told him about this life that can only come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Immediately, with tears streaming down his cheeks, my stepfather raised his hands and yelled, <em>I believe!  I believe!</em> Greg, I did not lead him in a prayer.  I did not tell him that he had to make Jesus Christ Lord of his life.  Instead, since January 2007, the Lord Jesus Christ has transformed and continues to reform him to be the Godly man that he is becoming.  My stepfather realizes even as a young believer that it was the Lord Jesus Christ that has done the work in him--it was not anything that he could do to offer anything for his salvation.  The works now are a result of that very salvation. Greg: Grace to you.  I, too believe in what you have written.  My stepfather came over one day and told me about some sin in his life.  He told me that he was at the end of his rope–there was no hope for him.  I told him that there was hope.  It took him over an hour to drive to my house–that is God’s grace by giving him an opportunity to drive that way without getting killed in a car accident.  When he arrived at the house, God showed him grace by allowing him to sit on my couch and to tell me what he had done without getting shot down by me or anyone else.  Instead, what he saw for the first time in his life was the Lord Jesus Christ and the grace that He has to offer to those who believe (faith alone in Christ alone).  I told him about this grace, I told him about this forgiveness, I told him about this life that can only come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Immediately, with tears streaming down his cheeks, my stepfather raised his hands and yelled, I believe!  I believe! Greg, I did not lead him in a prayer.  I did not tell him that he had to make Jesus Christ Lord of his life.  Instead, since January 2007, the Lord Jesus Christ has transformed and continues to reform him to be the Godly man that he is becoming.  My stepfather realizes even as a young believer that it was the Lord Jesus Christ that has done the work in him–it was not anything that he could do to offer anything for his salvation.  The works now are a result of that very salvation.

]]> By: Greg http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-21785 Greg Tue, 28 Aug 2007 03:41:46 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-21785 <p>Hey Pastor Scott,</p> <p>Thanks for your post! Don't get me wrong. I beleive that good works flow out of salvation. Like Ephesians 2:10 says we are his workmanship created to do good works. Once we are saved that salvation should produce good works. If it doesn't then one or two things is true: either we were never genuinely saved or we are in for a divine encounter from a disappointed Daddy who will not be mocked (Galatians 6:7.) He will discipline his children who are walking in disobedience (Hebrews 12:6) and will conform us to the image of Christ.</p> <p>I'm convinced that James 2 is referring to the works that proceed out of salvation (i.e. "sanctification"). Why? because in Romans 4 Paul refers back to Genesis 15:6 when Abraham believed God (faith alone) and his faith was counted for righteousness. But James refers to when Abraham was willing to offer his son Isaac on the altar "his faith and his actions were working together and his faith was made complete by what he did." James is referring not to the moment of Abraham's salvation (Genesis 15:6) but the moment he was williing to offer everything on the altar (sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis 22). When the angel of the Lord told him to stop he said, "Now I know that you fear me." In other words Abraham's actions caught up with his faith and his faith was made complete (literally "matured") by what he was willing to do by sacrificing his own son.</p> <p>Was abraham saved in the 25 years between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22? I say yes (and I think you'd say yes too!) His act of sacrifice showed that his faith had fully matured and he was declared righteous, not in a legal foresnic sense of the word but in the practical sense. He was a man of God and declared to be just that by Jesus himself.</p> <p>The point? We believe in God and "our faith is counted as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:1-4) and then we live a life of good deeds and seek to lay it all on the altar like Abraham did (Genesis 22 and James 2:14-26).</p> <p>Paul is talking about Abraham's justification by faith alone. James is talking about Abraham's practical sanctification that was by faith and works.</p> <p>Either way...what a great discussion! Thanks for taking time to type such a thoughtful response.</p> Hey Pastor Scott,

Thanks for your post! Don’t get me wrong. I beleive that good works flow out of salvation. Like Ephesians 2:10 says we are his workmanship created to do good works. Once we are saved that salvation should produce good works. If it doesn’t then one or two things is true: either we were never genuinely saved or we are in for a divine encounter from a disappointed Daddy who will not be mocked (Galatians 6:7.) He will discipline his children who are walking in disobedience (Hebrews 12:6) and will conform us to the image of Christ.

I’m convinced that James 2 is referring to the works that proceed out of salvation (i.e. "sanctification"). Why? because in Romans 4 Paul refers back to Genesis 15:6 when Abraham believed God (faith alone) and his faith was counted for righteousness. But James refers to when Abraham was willing to offer his son Isaac on the altar "his faith and his actions were working together and his faith was made complete by what he did." James is referring not to the moment of Abraham’s salvation (Genesis 15:6) but the moment he was williing to offer everything on the altar (sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis 22). When the angel of the Lord told him to stop he said, "Now I know that you fear me." In other words Abraham’s actions caught up with his faith and his faith was made complete (literally "matured") by what he was willing to do by sacrificing his own son.

Was abraham saved in the 25 years between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22? I say yes (and I think you’d say yes too!) His act of sacrifice showed that his faith had fully matured and he was declared righteous, not in a legal foresnic sense of the word but in the practical sense. He was a man of God and declared to be just that by Jesus himself.

The point? We believe in God and "our faith is counted as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:1-4) and then we live a life of good deeds and seek to lay it all on the altar like Abraham did (Genesis 22 and James 2:14-26).

Paul is talking about Abraham’s justification by faith alone. James is talking about Abraham’s practical sanctification that was by faith and works.

Either way…what a great discussion! Thanks for taking time to type such a thoughtful response.

]]> By: Pastor Scott http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-21763 Pastor Scott Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:16:21 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-21763 Wow!  I never picked up on the calvinism from any of the messages or devotions before.  Know that there are a lot of Wesleyan supporters of the conferences that are not in agreement with this interpretation of the scriptures.  I would agree with the fact that salvation is a free gift of God and that we can not earn or work for our initial salvation, but I'm not sure that this "all faith and no works" is exactly scriptural.  I belive James the brother of Jesus clarifies this in his book.  James 2:14-26 tells us several importan facts about faith and works that we cannot omit, or tear out of our Bibles and sell this "pie in the sky" doctrine of faith alone! First, faith without works profits no one (v.14)  Second, faith without works doesn't help the needy or poor (v.15-16).  What do we tell them?  Just have faith and you'll be ok.  I have faith that you're going to be fine.  No faith must be joined with action--works!  Thirdly, faith without works is <strong>dead!</strong> (v.17, 20,)  How can you have faith without works?  Faith is not passive, it is a word of action.  To be true and authentic it must be joined with works.  It is not enough to just believe. (v. 19)  And lastly, faith is made perfect by works. (v.22)  The Bible clearly teaches that there is something more that God wants to do and will do in the life of the believer.  He will sanctify holy those who will by faith trust Him enough to obey His commands, and live for Jesus everyday.  Jesus prayed for our sanctification.  Paul talks about purifying ourselves from everything that contaminates our bodies and spirits and perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.  These commands are a little deeper than just faith alone.  To perfect holiness, it takes our willingness to practice and work at it, and with the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, <strong>He </strong>can through us, accomplish this holy living the Bible talks about.  We settle for far less than what He created us for.  I would agree that our churches are off track with thinking that the sinners prayer or a one time trip down the aisle and a prayer will get you into heaven, and you can do nothing to lose your salvation.  We were born free moral agents.  We have a choice to serve God or reject him everyday of our life.  He's not going to automatically complete the his work in us without our willingness and consent.  We're not robots without a choice.  It hasn't been predetermined, either before salvation nor after salvation, that we go to heaven or hell and there's nothing we can do about it.  We have a choice.  Paul said, "I die daily".  There's our part and there's God's part.  He's done his part and we have all of him.  But does He have all of us?  We have to give him controll of everything in our lives and that takes a little work.  I would say that what the Protestant churches in our day need more than reformation is transformation (Romans 12:1-2).  We need to begin to live the life we claim to have--"walk the walk" so to speak.  This doesn't take away anything from the free gift of God's grace through faith.  But we better include in the equation that we are saved to do good works and to live a holy life through the power of the Holy Spirit or we are preaching a half-truth gospel.  Hebrews 12:14 says: "Make every <strong>effort</strong> to live in peace with all men and to <strong>be holy</strong>; <strong>without holiness no one will see the Lord." </strong> Wow!  I never picked up on the calvinism from any of the messages or devotions before.  Know that there are a lot of Wesleyan supporters of the conferences that are not in agreement with this interpretation of the scriptures.  I would agree with the fact that salvation is a free gift of God and that we can not earn or work for our initial salvation, but I’m not sure that this "all faith and no works" is exactly scriptural.  I belive James the brother of Jesus clarifies this in his book.  James 2:14-26 tells us several importan facts about faith and works that we cannot omit, or tear out of our Bibles and sell this "pie in the sky" doctrine of faith alone! First, faith without works profits no one (v.14)  Second, faith without works doesn’t help the needy or poor (v.15-16).  What do we tell them?  Just have faith and you’ll be ok.  I have faith that you’re going to be fine.  No faith must be joined with action–works!  Thirdly, faith without works is dead! (v.17, 20,)  How can you have faith without works?  Faith is not passive, it is a word of action.  To be true and authentic it must be joined with works.  It is not enough to just believe. (v. 19)  And lastly, faith is made perfect by works. (v.22)  The Bible clearly teaches that there is something more that God wants to do and will do in the life of the believer.  He will sanctify holy those who will by faith trust Him enough to obey His commands, and live for Jesus everyday.  Jesus prayed for our sanctification.  Paul talks about purifying ourselves from everything that contaminates our bodies and spirits and perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.  These commands are a little deeper than just faith alone.  To perfect holiness, it takes our willingness to practice and work at it, and with the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, He can through us, accomplish this holy living the Bible talks about.  We settle for far less than what He created us for.  I would agree that our churches are off track with thinking that the sinners prayer or a one time trip down the aisle and a prayer will get you into heaven, and you can do nothing to lose your salvation.  We were born free moral agents.  We have a choice to serve God or reject him everyday of our life.  He’s not going to automatically complete the his work in us without our willingness and consent.  We’re not robots without a choice.  It hasn’t been predetermined, either before salvation nor after salvation, that we go to heaven or hell and there’s nothing we can do about it.  We have a choice.  Paul said, "I die daily".  There’s our part and there’s God’s part.  He’s done his part and we have all of him.  But does He have all of us?  We have to give him controll of everything in our lives and that takes a little work.  I would say that what the Protestant churches in our day need more than reformation is transformation (Romans 12:1-2).  We need to begin to live the life we claim to have–"walk the walk" so to speak.  This doesn’t take away anything from the free gift of God’s grace through faith.  But we better include in the equation that we are saved to do good works and to live a holy life through the power of the Holy Spirit or we are preaching a half-truth gospel.  Hebrews 12:14 says: "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

]]> By: Pastor Jason http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-21260 Pastor Jason Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:04:42 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-21260 Hey, Your all on the right track (Praise God He's given you faith for you to be able to write some of the things you write). This idea that the Modern Protestant Evangelical Churches need another reformation is correct, and I find God is gracing people with the faith to make it happen. This is an endeavor that God has begun in America and one the most legalistic minded people will never be able to stop. Decision dependant salvation is as contradicting to the Gospel as the medival Roman Catholic Church if not more. I'm glad to stumble on some of your comments! God's Grace to you all in Christ!  In Christ's Unspeakable Grace,  Pastor Jason Hey, Your all on the right track (Praise God He’s given you faith for you to be able to write some of the things you write). This idea that the Modern Protestant Evangelical Churches need another reformation is correct, and I find God is gracing people with the faith to make it happen. This is an endeavor that God has begun in America and one the most legalistic minded people will never be able to stop. Decision dependant salvation is as contradicting to the Gospel as the medival Roman Catholic Church if not more. I’m glad to stumble on some of your comments! God’s Grace to you all in Christ!  In Christ’s Unspeakable Grace,  Pastor Jason

]]> By: Becky http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-21193 Becky Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:55:27 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-21193 Amen!We need to get the <strong>real gospel</strong> out there! ~Becky~ Amen!We need to get the real gospel out there! ~Becky~

]]> By: Eddie http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-21192 Eddie Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:29:28 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-21192 <strong>Awesome!</strong> That was a great blog! I recently had someone ask me what I thought about "faith without works being dead." I told them I agreed and then told them what Christ said about that work... <strong>"It is Finished."</strong> If Christ had not died or made the perfect sacrifice, the work would not have been finished and our faith would be in vain or dead. Faith alone cannot save if there is no substance or work to the faith. I can believe wholeheartedly that I will not fail my English final... but if I fail my English final, my faith was in vain. <strong>BUT</strong> the <em>good news</em> (gospel) is that Christ DID make that payment, the work HAS been done, and our faith is NOT in vain. Faith alone in Christ alone is NOT dead because the work has <strong>already</strong> been completed! <em><strong>Sola Fide!</strong></em> Awesome! That was a great blog! I recently had someone ask me what I thought about "faith without works being dead." I told them I agreed and then told them what Christ said about that work… "It is Finished." If Christ had not died or made the perfect sacrifice, the work would not have been finished and our faith would be in vain or dead. Faith alone cannot save if there is no substance or work to the faith. I can believe wholeheartedly that I will not fail my English final… but if I fail my English final, my faith was in vain. BUT the good news (gospel) is that Christ DID make that payment, the work HAS been done, and our faith is NOT in vain. Faith alone in Christ alone is NOT dead because the work has already been completed! Sola Fide!

]]> By: Jason http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church/comment-page-1/#comment-21189 Jason Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:45:43 +0000 http://www.gregstier.org/rants/a-re-reformation-of-the-protestant-church#comment-21189 WOW!  I share some of the same thoughts and feelings but have never seen this communicated with such clarity, passion, and fowardness.  It's about time we started calling our brothers and sisters in Christ on the carpet and reminding them what the Gospel is all about.  I think Martin Luther, along with Jesus and the Apostles, would be / are upset with the state of the church considering all they did to make clear that salvation is the free gift of God!  No strings attached, no works required, no purchase necessary...simply a trust and faith in Jesus Christ as He is the one who did all the work and paid the price, in full. <em>Sola Fide!</em> WOW!  I share some of the same thoughts and feelings but have never seen this communicated with such clarity, passion, and fowardness.  It’s about time we started calling our brothers and sisters in Christ on the carpet and reminding them what the Gospel is all about.  I think Martin Luther, along with Jesus and the Apostles, would be / are upset with the state of the church considering all they did to make clear that salvation is the free gift of God!  No strings attached, no works required, no purchase necessary…simply a trust and faith in Jesus Christ as He is the one who did all the work and paid the price, in full. Sola Fide!

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